Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Panel Discussion

Hallelujah. We should be able to have a good time tonight. I was telling the guys in the back that what we were going to do tonight, rather than just discussing the last series that we were through, was to have each one of them begin to share with you some of the process that they go through in renewing their own minds and some of the temptations that they have, the trials that they’re facing in their own lives, and how we cope with it, how we cope with our flesh. How many of you would like to hear all the failures that the pastors go through? Let me see your hands; would you? We’re not going to tell you, but we battle the same battles that you do. Janet was sharing in the back. She said, "You know, I think sometimes that people seem to think that there is a special dispensation for ministry gifts in that they just don’t have to face what anybody else does. That it’s just easier for them to read their Bibles and easier for them to pray and easier to be able to get into different areas of commitment and diligence." I think there is a dispensation of grace as it affects the ability to care for the body, but there is no special dispensation for your own personal growth and your own personal holiness. Over the years, I’ve found that in warring with the flesh and in warring in spiritual growth that that process is what anybody else goes through. But there are times when even in your own personal battles, there’s a dispensation of grace that’s there that allows you to care for the flock because that’s where the heart of God is. As pastors, you can’t confuse the two. You can’t confuse the dispensation, the grace of God, for that moment for the care of His body with your own personal holiness. That’s the thing that is common to us that you don’t have to go through, so it’s very important to realize that we battle the same battles. I think by the guys just sharing a little bit that it might wake some things up in your own heart, and we’ll see if there’s an opportunity for any questions or comments along these lines.

We’re living in an hour—I was sharing with the guys in the back—we’re living in an hour that I believe, like every generation that’s gone before, is the hour of the Lord’s return. The genius of God that allowed the imminent return of the Lord to be that motivating factor for our pursuit and for our preparation has been there for every generation. The Scripture says that in the last days, iniquity’s going to abound, and it is continually abounding, and I believe that unless the days were shortened, even the very elect are not going to be able to stand. We’re coming into that day, and so we can’t just sit back and say, "What I’ve done to this point’s enough."

We as a congregation, I believe, right now—or as a fellowship—are in a little bit of a slump. The machinery’s still grinding out everything, and the personal relationships that we’ve built to hold one another accountable are intact, and they’re still carrying our momentum; but I think it’s important for each one to look at your own heart individually and ask, "Where am I in my preparation, in my personal pursuit, and how much am I being carried?" Understand that this is part of what the renewing of the mind emphasis was all about. What are you doing personally to prepare yourself for that Christlikeness? How many of the children are being carried by the parents and wives or husbands, or vice versa? We need to be able to just examine our own hearts and not allow the James factor to be lost to where we continue in the Word of God, so that we don’t forget what manner of man we are because Jesus is coming back real soon; amen? Now, we’re living in a time here and in place where, as we were discussing, you can’t exhaust the opportunities not to pursue God. There are too many things around here to do for the flesh, and you can do them all—as many as you can do every day—and not even come close to exhausting the opportunities. What are you doing in your own personal pursuit of God? That’s what the renewed mind is all about.

We’re going to talk a little bit. (Speaking to the other pastors.) You might want to comment first on anything that stood out in this particular teaching this go-around, if there was something that triggered in your mind, and then after that… Or you can share, if you want, just some of the things that you wrestle with, that you deal with in the refreshing of your own lives spiritually, the renewing process. We’ll just see how it goes. Anybody that wants to go can go.

Pastor LaRock: One thing on the renewing of the mind personally that stands out to me that I think would be helpful to the people is to just—the principle from Colossians of setting your affections on things above—to just be thinking to be sober and circumspect about the thoughts that are going through your mind, and who is it that’s motivating you, and whose sayings are you listening to, and who do you look up to, and who do you want to be like? Are they Bible heroes? Are they current-day men of God, or are they sports figures or success instructors, business people? Last night I was watching a special on TV called," The Kennedy’s, The Curse of Power." It was a two-hour special on Joseph Kennedy and his sons and the way he raised his sons. It seemed like they were trying to present it from a balanced perspective. They weren’t trying to make these guys out to be like gods like many people do—the Kennedys—but they weren’t totally trashing them either. It seemed like they were bringing out the good, the bad, and the ugly. One if the things they said Joseph Kennedy taught his sons was that it’s not what you are, it’s what people think you are. When you hear sayings like that… If you embrace a saying like that, you may be successful in the world. You may become president someday, but we as Christians with the renewed mind, immediately that just opposes everything that’s in us because we believe that it’s not what people think you are; it’s what you are—the opposite.

The world system, of course, is opposed to Scriptural principles, and that kind of a philosophy is all about self-advancement, many times at the expense and the cost of other’s lives, and things of that nature. When you hear sayings like that, whether it’s from a great athlete when they talk about success, whose thoughts and whose saying are playing over in your mind during the day, or who is it that you’re listening to? Who is it that you look up to? Who is it that you want to be like? Whose spirit do you want to imbibe? When you see people interviewed on TV, do you think, "Man, I’d like to be like that guy and have everybody bow down and worship me like they do Michael Jordan? What can I do to be like that and get that kind of attention and get that kind of respect?" All the things that the natural man wants to achieve and gather to himself. Think about the thoughts that go through your mind. Who is it that you’re trying to be like? Do you think about what would Jesus do? Do you think about how would the Apostle Paul handle this situation? How would some of the men of God that you look up to, whether they be authors that you’ve read after, or historical figures or current day, your own Pastor, and different people whose lives you’ve been able to glean from—whether they are past generations or current. Are they the ones that you look to? Are they the ones whose thoughts that you want to embrace? Do you think about what would Pastor Scott do? What would the Apostle Paul do? What would Jesus do? Just to think about those thoughts. That’s one thing I do—just discipline my mind—because if you’re thinking about the thoughts of people that are promoting worldly gain and worldly success, you’re going to imbibe that spirit. That’s what’s going to be your god and your goal. That’s going to be your pearl of great price. If you check yourself and notice, "Hey, I don’t need to be thinking about that; I need to be thinking about this." And get your mind back on course. Many of you have heard the saying, "You can’t do anything about a bird landing on your head, but you can prevent it from building a nest there." To not give place to those thoughts and, when you identify them, to replace those thoughts that are carnal, that are worldly, that are going to cause you to move in a direction of pursuing a temporal goal, and to follow after righteousness in its place. That’s one thing I do—just to be disciplined in my thoughts and whose spirit am I trying to imbibe and whose thoughts and whose spirit am I really giving place to in my mind as I’m seeking to be conformed to the image of Jesus?

Pastor Scott: Yeah, that other world-mindedness is so important. That’s a discipline in and of itself, just being able to affect that. Richard, you were going to share something.

Pastor Miller: In my life, when I’m resisting temptation, I have the tendency to make two mistakes. The first mistake is I try to fight against the temptation. That’s something that you began to teach years ago that really set me free in that area because it’s true, so true, the more you fight against the temptation and the more you concentrate on the temptation, the more power you give it. You end up hopelessly in bondage, and you go through a struggle, a cycle, of failure and defeat and discouragement that’s just terrible.

Pastor Scott: It’s like Lot’s wife, when you turn around to rebuke it instead of pursuing what’s ahead, that’s where the defeat is.

Pastor Miller: I have the tendency to make that mistake and one other mistake. The one other mistake is to fight it through will power, to say I’m going to change. I’m going to do this and just grit my teeth and bear through it. You talk about a failure waiting to happen because you can’t do that. Every time you would do good, evil is present. [Pastor Scott: What happens if you do happen to pull it off and get a victory?] Oh, then you get proud over it. Then you stumble because you’re thinking of yourself more highly. Will power, that’s just no way to win. [Pastor Scott: Right.] It’s just continual defeat. In my life, when I’m up against something, I found, Number one, I just have to fall on my face before the Lord and say, "Lord, help me." Like that passage out of, I believe it’s Jeremiah, out of one of the prophets, where he says, "Turn my heart, Oh, God." Just to realize that in me dwells no good thing, and there’s nothing good that I’m going to produce. I’m not going to change this for good. If there’s any good, it’s going to be God working in me. I can say every time when I’ve prayed honestly, "Father, I can’t do anything about this. I have this sin in my life. I have this pride in my life. I have this problem, and I am powerless against it. I need you to help me." A hundred percent of the time, He has always given me the grace. Most of the time, it’s not instantaneous, but over a period of days and weeks, I find my heart changing; and I think, Wow! This is neat! How did this happen? I could have never done this. [Pastor Scott: I’ve resisted this for years and couldn’t beat it.] Yes, and then He comes through with a deliverance, and it’s just like that passage says, "Turn my heart, Oh, God." When you’ve turned me, then I’ll repent. We can’t repent. We can’t change course until He turns our heart and does the work. Then coupled along with that is the meditation factor. What you were sharing was so important because I’ve found in my life, the reason I’m tempted is because I believe a lie. The lust of the flesh, the lust the eyes, the pride of life, has somehow lied to me just like the serpent lied to Eve in the Garden and said, "You really need this. This will give you something. This will appease your flesh. This will boost your ego. You really need this." That is where the renewing of the mind becomes so important, because the Word is alive; it’s powerful; it’s sharper than any two-edged sword. It goes right to the thoughts and intents of our heart, right to the very center of our motives. What it does, is that it reveals to us God’s will and God’s plan. When that happens, it tears down all of those lies, and I begin to see that all of the glitz and the lies and everything the world is trying to promote is a lie. It’s false. It won’t bring me what it promises. When that lie is destroyed, the temptation is really powerless now. It’s no longer a temptation. The only reason why I was tempted is because I believed a lie. When you don’t believe a lie, it’s no longer a temptation. That comes through the renewing of your mind from the Word of God. The Word of God is the only power that can tear down those imaginations. That’s another thing I think we do. Sometimes we try to tear down the imagination. You can’t. You’re powerless against those imaginations.

Pastor Scott: It’s that same process that you were talking about because then what happens is you start focusing on the imagination, trying to somehow diffuse it, which, in essence, gives it credibility, instead of holding the truth up against it. As you pursue the truth, the truth satisfies you, brings you the peace, the grace, the power. Then the other is defeated.

Pastor Miller: That’s how it works. You really don’t defeat the temptation by fighting against the temptation. You’re free from the lust of the flesh as you’re walking in the Spirit. You know, just like you referred to Lot’s wife. As you turn your back and pursue the course God has you on, that’s when you’re set free from these besetting sins. That’s some of the things. The other thing too, you know, you’ve spoken to it many times, and I know it’s true in my life. Idleness will get you in trouble every time. In my life, I really think I’m at my best when I have a little too much to do, when you’re so busy in the Kingdom serving others that the ministry that’s pouring through you is continually taking you to your knees asking the Lord to refill you. When you’re constantly emptying yourself and constantly having to be refilled, I believe that’s when you’re at your best.

Pastor Scott: Yeah, the idleness is death. It really is because the flesh then has every opportunity to express itself. Once it tastes of that liberty that it has, you can’t satisfy it. That’s why you walk on such a spiritual pace that the flesh says, "This is killing me." Somebody commented when they moved down here, they said, The pace—somebody just moved in—the pace you people are going is killing me. That’s the idea. These are some of the things—if you’re after the right things I mean. We’ll talk about that some too. That’s an important part. It really is. You guys have anything to share?

Pastor Heglund: I know one thing for me and can identify with everything Richard was saying about the deceitful lusts, and the Bible talks about them being so deceitful. They come in great packages, and they’re so enticing. That’s one thing I look at in my life as a judge is where is my contentment level? I can watch pretty quickly if there’s something out there I think is going to satisfy me. This next toy that I need to get, or if I just am irritated with things in my life—my kids or my wife or all the kids up here at school are bugging me or something. Just what could those things be? I wish it never happened, but sometimes it does. I think that, "Man, if I just had this next thing." And then just realizing that I’m supposed to be content. The one verse that always plays over and over in my mind is Hebrews 13, verse 5. Just be content with what you already own, with what you have, because Jesus said He’d never leave you nor forsake you. I wish I could walk in that all the time because the joy it is, the peace. I use the example over and over again just of if somebody told you, you won a billion dollars, yeah, you’re content. You’d be more than content. You’d be doing flips around the room and high-fiving people because I got a billion dollars. We have so much more than that. We don’t have to pay the debt that we owe of Hell. We’ve been delivered. We’ve been given the grace to live above sin, and yet, I find myself despising what I’ve got and wanting more. When I get in that shape, just looking to see where I’ve gotten off course. Somewhere I’ve lost the first love because when I’m there, it doesn’t matter what comes my way. Your right arm falls off, and you go, well, gees, still got the Lord. I’ve still got the most important thing. It’s fun when you can live there and stay there and be in that shape. That’s one thing that I look at. A practical thing I guess—another thing I thought of when Richard was sharing—of the idle times, and those are definitely the hardest. One that’s usually tough for me is vacation time. One real practical thing that helps me on vacation is I just always take a book with me. I think I pretty much learned that from watching you [speaking to Pastor Scott]. I don’t know if it’s something you purposed to do, but I always noticed you had a book. It was something that could keep me on course very simply, and maybe it’s because I’m a little lazy sometimes on vacation to read my Bible, but that book a lot of times just stirs my hunger and increases me, and I come back refreshed; and I have something more. It’s just an easy way for me to stay on track because I can read a couple chapters in the morning, a couple chapters at night. Sometimes those things really get me jump started, even though it’s almost cheating sometimes because it’s somebody else’s revelation or something, but it is. It’s a good jumpstart. Those are a couple of things.

Pastor Scott: That’s never cheating. There’s nothing new. We need these things that we take and apply them to our lives. I would suggest that every vacation anybody goes on they take Jerry Bridges’ book, The Pursuit of Holiness, and read that while you’re there. It’ll keep your flesh in line. It’s a good vacation book, be able to just refresh yourself because vacation is not a flesh-out. It’s a refreshing. It’s an important, important part to be able to get out of the mundane to where the Lord can speak to you and set course for the next grind. Those are areas—on our vacations I don’t spend an inordinate amount of time. I enjoy all of the playing, but I do really look for the Lord to speak at those times and prepare us for the next round. I think that’s something that’s a practical thing to do. Anytime you try to reward yourself—I’ve been really working hard for the Kingdom, and now I’m going to reward myself—the flesh will take over; and you’ll do something stupid. Those are things that we just have to guard against because we don’t deserve any rewards. As a rule, we as people just really have trouble coming to grips with how wicked we are. We’re just not good people, and we’re evil, and we’re depraved, nasty, selfish, murdering, lying dogs. Thank you, Jesus, for saving us, amen? When you come to grips with that, it really gives you a different approach to the need of renewing your mind. The real awareness of who you are without Him, what you’re capable of without Him, and what that one moment of not walking in the Spirit can cost you is something that—and we’ve all been there—and then the consequences are there for life. You can’t take it back, but God doesn’t keep score; and that’s the good thing. I’m getting ready to start the next series, which is probably going to be called "Another Gospel." I’m just going to go back again and review what the Gospel is and the benefits of our relationship in Him and the true awareness of our righteousness in Christ and the full package of it being finished and our acceptance in Him. It’s something I’ve been studying, meditating on. It’s exciting. It’s an exciting thing. I’m just looking forward to that. In the renewing process, when we get out of the Spirit, the one thing we do know is that we will fulfill the lust of the flesh. He’s there. The old man is there, and he’s contending for dominance. The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. Anytime that we back off the Spirit, the flesh is going to dominate. It’s not a force that’s content with lying down. It’s a very offensive power that’s working in our lives. We have to be conscious of that. Anybody else want to share? Steve, did you have…

Pastor Gardner: You mentioned something, and I can’t remember if it was this morning or Wednesday, but it was about being quiet. I can’t remember exactly now how you stated it. [Pastor Scott: Wednesday, we talked about that.] Was it Wednesday? Talking about just being quiet. I know in my own life, that’s one thing and, of course, when you’re raised where I was raised a lot of times that’s all you did even as an unbeliever because you’d have cows and barns, and that’s about it. If you wanted to do anything really exciting, you had to drive for twenty miles to do it but being able to appreciate what you had around you, just the very simple things. I know when I take that over into the Spirit and recognize that all of the teaching is absolutely necessary and the music—the Hosanna somebody mentioned I think this morning—the Hosanna music and so forth and being able to get away in the presence of God without any of that. You’re not without the Word because that’s within you, and, of course, the music you’ve learned, so that’s there as well; but being able to go away and get into the presence of God. Janet mentioned just a few minutes ago in the back about how many people would be content to just go down and sit on the picnic table by the pond or in the swing, and just be there without a game or without music playing or without someone else there having to talk because I can’t stand the quiet. The quiet is something that I really enjoy. When I’m by myself, I find it very easy to get into the presence of God and hear what He had to say Wednesday evening. It’s now Thursday afternoon or Friday afternoon, or perhaps Saturday, but really begin to hear even more some of the things that were spoken at that time. Don’t have a Bible with me, don’t have the whole message—couldn’t repeat the whole message if you ask me to—but there were certain things within that message that were absolutely necessary for me to grab hold of, if not for myself, for others.

The one thing I find really difficult to do is to be quiet like that in the midst of chaos— or what appears sometimes to be chaos—with the life, as you made mention, the person a few minutes ago, this whirlwind that at times that we’re in because you’re in that whirlwind, and you have things that you have to do. They have to be done but being able to, while you’re in the midst of that, still be quiet and be able to hear. All of us have enough knowledge at this point, that we could easily quote the Word in any given situation. But the thing that I find for myself is something that I always want to make sure of and often sometimes don’t say anything because I’m not sure, is this the right word for this person at this time? I could think of several Scriptures that would apply, but is this what God wants said to this person at this time because I’ve seen so many people who sat down and studied for hours and hours and hours, and they quote everything there is on the subject to the person, and nothing changes. What was it that God wanted to say to that person or to that group of people? Part of what I’m speaking of is that when a situation comes up, right now. It’s not something that you know in advance is coming, but right now it’s coming and be able to quiet yourself very quickly and let God speak and hear in the midst of this person’s trying to tell you to do this, and this one’s over there saying why aren’t you going to do something and this one’s dying, and whatever else is going on. You’re just looking at it all and thinking, Okay, Father, what do you want to do? What do you want to say here?

Pastor Scott: It’s based on the relationship that’s built in that personal quiet time, and it’s a time of where Jesus was able to stop and say, Father, I know that when I pray You hear me. He knew that there was immediate access because of that habitual time in His presence. Practically, when we come for prayer and whatever time. We try to be here corporately as much as possible around seven to pray for the specific needs of the fellowship, but in that time, we’re here, and we got our thirty minutes, or forty-five minutes or whatever it is, in, but what’s really taking place? Well, it’s seven-thirty; I got to go get the kids. Then we’re going to go out and walk around the parking lot, go up and… When we were doing the work back here on Tuesday, I went up to find some sheet rock screws up in the storage room to finish that off, and I was just kind of watching what was going on out in the parking lot and the gym. And there were a couple of different classes going on in the gym and all of these kinds of things. I was just wondering how much thought about what I have to go do next because at seven-thirty starts kickball, volleyball, kick a person, aerobics, walk the parking lot, catch a fish time, and how much of that is keeping me from really moving on a schedule that says, "Prayer is not thirty minutes and go do something else." I’m here till God says something to me. Now, that may happen in five minutes, or it may be five hours, whatever. Prayer is—the simple definition that we’ve given over the years—practicing the presence of God. Until you’re in the presence, you’re not in prayer. Until there’s been the communion and the true koinonia between you and Father, then you’re not through praying yet, whatever it is. Are we being robbed if we’re scheduling in prayer? We’re talking about the renewed mind. The renewed mind has to say, "I’m not scheduling God in. If I get to that other stuff, then fine." I’m not talking about your kids. One of the two of you is responsible to reel them in. At the same time, that’s something that the two of you should be talking about as husbands and wives. If the wife is the one that’s the most in need of refreshing at this time, then the husband needs to take that up. Those are things that have to be worked on practically, but I think in our whirlwind lives that we’re talking about—we’re talking about the renewed mind—I think there’s a possibility that that’s happening. It’ll be interesting to hear from some of you, but how do we approach it in this process? What are we doing in all of this hectic lifestyle that we’re in that is drawing the energy, the life out of us that we don’t have time for this quiet time in God’s presence? I’m too busy to be still and know that He is God.

Pastor Gardner: I think one of the problems that we have is many people want that, and they try to schedule it; and you can’t, not always. You can sometimes. You have to be ready to hear because when He calls…

Pastor Scott: Some of it is because—it’s not only our schedule, you know, it’s—the Lord’s speaking to us, and it’s time to be quiet and hear, and then some of us don’t have the capacity to tell our children, well, I know that we were going to go spend our twelfth day in a row at Chucky Cheese, but Daddy really needs to hear from the Lord. It’s that we’re letting other people’s schedules dictate to us also, and the whole thing of just not being able to say no. No, we’re not doing that. But you said—I know I said, but God just told me that this is what we’re doing; and we’re not doing that. Now, if your whole life is one of not keeping your promises, then you got another problem. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about when God speaks to us, that that’s the thing that takes priority over everything else. Everything else shuts down. That’s the renewed mind. It chooses the spiritual things first.

Pastor Gardner: Right, because Father knows everything that’s going on anyway, and if there is a true need in a life of one of the kids or the spouse or whatever it is, He’s not stupid–maybe I shouldn’t say it that way–but you know, I’m not going to call you. You’re doing what I’ve instructed you to do in ministering to this person. I’m not going to call you away right at that minute to let that go. It would be disastrous if that happens, if that happens all the time.

Pastor Scott: Yeah, and we’re not talking about trivial things either. We’re talking about times when people really need to set apart areas and hear from God. I think that’s important. Any other comments that stood out to you guys either on the teaching or some of the personal things in renewing the mind and then we’ll see if there are any questions from a practical standpoint. I think there’s some practical things. We talked about the abstinence. How have you found that to work in your lives from a practical basis?

Pastor Heglund: For me the one thing that stood out a lot in this teaching about abstinence was to just really studying how much the Bible talks about that, about coming out from among them and being separate and touching not the unclean thing, there in II Corinthians 6, and then the first part of verse 7 talks about perfecting holiness in the fear of God, and later on talks about just being that peculiar people and just that people set off by boundaries. We’re not supposed to be involved in what this world is involved in, but you made the comment of how we work those things out by having our senses exercised. We partake of something. It’s our liberty or whatever, and we do it, and we go, "E-i-w-w! Gross! That left a bad taste in my mouth." Now, I’m having to contend with all these thoughts in worship, and maybe it’s an amoral thing, but just because, I’m not going to do that again and just seeing the different things that you may think are liberty. I shared one thing that was kind of funny. I don’t know if anybody else struggles with this. I shared it in Young Adults about the television. I would find myself at certain times looking through the… flipping through, flipping through, flipping through, and nothing that was… [Pastor Scott: That’s aggravating. You do that?] Yeah, very uncommon, I know, but flipping through and just to see what the weirdest thing out there was. Like, wow, look at all those perverted people. They’re really strange. I don’t mean something sexually perverted but just finding the strangest thing on television. [Pastor Scott: MTV or something?] Yeah, it would be something on MTV, and there would be people pouring beer all over their head and smashing cans and throwing and who could do that the most times and go? [Pastor Scott: Sparks off all their piercings…] Yeah, and then realizing, hey, wait a minute! I’m sort of flipping through the channels to see this happen. What’s wrong with me? At least they’re doing something. I’m so lame, I have to sit here and watch it on television; but being able to catch that quickly and say, is this edifying me at all? Is there anything in here of value and replacing that with something that’s true—and just whatever it might be—a certain movie that you feel that you have liberty to watch; and you watch it, and you say, "E-i-i-w! Gross!" You’re not going to do that again. Just looking and purposing to really pay attention to the things that affect us because the world is putting so much on us. Just driving down the road, and there are billboards and commercials on TV or things that you might not even have the TV on, but things that come in the mail, and you have to look through—so much is being put into us. How much do we invite in and call it "liberty," and really, what we’re doing is attaching weights to ourselves, and we don’t even know it. If we just opened our eyes and pay attention and allow the Lord to work on us, you’d begin to see what those things are. Like I said, one of the tests for me, I can tell. I’m in worship, and all of a sudden what am I battling because of something that I’ve put into one of my gates? [Pastor Scott: You get an urge to pour beer over your head during worship?] Yeah, right. Anything, but certainly not that.

Pastor Scott: I think the key is, again, that the flesh is never satisfied. We were talking, if you’re a well-rounded person, then you’re even in bigger trouble. The flesh wants… I made the comment; Jerry was talking about the program he was watching on TV about that new gun that shot a million rounds a minute. I immediately thought, man, I need one of those. That would really be cool. I want everything. I’m that type of person. I thought that would be cool. I want one of those. You could justify it by like target shooting or duck hunting or something with the new laws. [Pastor LaRock: Squirrel] Yeah, killer squirrels that are out there and the different things, but you have to come to that realization of the flesh; and that it wants everything. Some of us are satisfied with less. I figure if you’re going to lust for something, you might as well go all the way and try to get as much as you can get out of it. It’s realizing what the flesh is, I think, is what we’re talking about. We then, by abstinence, have to realize that if you put any bait out there. You know, if you throw the bait to yourself, it’s stupid if you’re a fish. Go over and bait the hook and then bite it. That’s what we do. And then tug the line once you get it hooked real good. The things that abstinence keeps us from is that personal baiting and it’s such an important part. Were you going to share something?

Pastor Miller: I see that abstinence as part of the repentance process there in II Corinthians 7 when it talks about the carefulness, because the carefulness there is really speaking about those personal boundaries that we set for ourselves. When we know that there’s a weakness in ourselves in this area, then the only wise thing to do is to set a boundary. Don’t go near that corner that Proverbs speaks about. Let some discipline and structure apply in your life to where you keep yourself away from where you know you’re tempted. I like what you’ve shared about Kim and Jeff, with the TV, and with how they put the locks, and Jeff has two numbers, and Kim has two numbers, things like that. That’s only safe. That’s smart to do. Wherever you need help in your life, you build those spiritual boundaries and disciplines to keep yourself from the street corner.

Pastor Scott: To be able to communicate—I can’t remember who it was. I think maybe Bridges refers to it in one of his books, but some of the Puritans and John Owens and a lot of these guys. They said that a lot of them prayed for, and I don’t remember what the term was, but they prayed for someone who was like a soul-mate almost, someone that they could share every area of their lives with without any concern of destroying that person and without any fear of destroying the relationship, so that each one could lift the hands up of the other individual. That’s part of the process, too. Being able to realize that we need people to input into our lives and to comfort us with the same comfort wherewith they’ve been comforted. These are all spiritual gifts. I think there was a working there in the early church where it said in the confessing of your sins one to another, that didn’t mean a public confession necessarily, but it’s speaking toward that same thing. Preferably, it could be a spouse or someone that you could really listen to and allow them to speak into your life concerning these areas. That’s part of this process also of being able to have that true perspective given to you from someone who cares. Those are all vital issues in the renewing process.

Pastor Heglund: I know that’s been big one for me that I wrote down as we were in the back, and you mentioned we were going to share some practical things. I know there are times when I need to go, the Lord really prompts me to go. There are times when you’re battling things, and you don’t have to go tell somebody—maybe it’s a sin that you’ve committed or something. It’s not something that you have to lay that on to somebody else like you’re speaking. There are times when I know I feel very strongly that I’ve got to go make myself accountable. Somebody needs to understand that this is what I’ve battled with. I need to make sure this is in the light because I know that in the light the enemy can’t work. I know that if I don’t get this in the light, the enemy’s just going to beat me up with this; and I need somebody else to hear this, and either knock me further back on the course or to so say, yeah, it’s good you got a handle. Let that be a wakeup call for you or whatever might be the case. Sometimes it’s things that I need to share with my wife, so that she’s got me accountable, or there have been times that I’ve come to you. Maybe they’re not big horrifying sins. It’s been pretty rare that something real scary, but I try to keep them before they get real scary. I feel like when I know that… I can tell when the Lord’s speaking to me. My hands start sweating. Especially if it’s something that I don’t want to do. I get that feeling in my stomach. I say, man, I know that this is going to hurt, a little more death but really trying to be careful to do that. I’m thankful that I have people that I can do that with—and we all do in this room for sure—but really looking to have that fear before the Lord to see that. A lot of times when I hear that I really see it as if I don’t get this thing in the light and obey here, I’m going to die. This isn’t something to play around with.

Pastor Scott: [Part of message not recorded.] …read the Bible more, spend more time talking to God, spend more time listening to God. There’s one that kind of sticks out in me I’ll share, and maybe you guys can share along the lines of things that have worked for you. I found in times of real warfare that there’s a little—it’s a little kid’s song—that’s not a kid’s song because we sing it in church some too. It goes back, saying, "Count your blessings. Name them one by one." I found that the best thing for me is to just step back and begin to articulate how thankful I am for everything that God’s done. It puts everything in perspective, places you back in that debtor role, and things are in order. Whenever we’re frustrated, whenever we’re fleshing out, or whatever, we’ve now taken back the dominant role, and are basically saying, I’m not getting enough. I’m not getting my due. I need this, or I need that, or I want that. It had to deal with what Jeff was sharing a little bit earlier about just being content with such things that we have. That’s something that I know I do. Anything that you guys do practically?

Pastor LaRock: I’ve looked to Psalm 23. When I’m going through a trial, there are a lot of different factors that are being done, regardless of what God may be doing sovereignty or in His eternal purpose, there’s a death. God’s killing you for some reason. Sometimes you feel like He’s got a stranglehold on you, and you can barely breathe because He’s killing you. That’s what you want, and that’s what He wants, but you’re struggling to survive. There have been times when I’ve felt like I couldn’t study the Word. My eyes would just start to glaze over. It was all I could do to just glean the milk of Psalm 23, but it brought comfort. It brought the renewing of my mind. It brought my perspective to God as my provider that He’s with me through the valley of the shadow of death. It’s just everything that you need in a very simple, easy to digest package. It’s nothing that you have to whip up and get all the different ingredients and bake for three hours. It’s ready to eat. There have been times in my life where that was all I could do. I couldn’t even think of the words to say to God in prayer, but you just flip to Psalm 23, and you begin to get enough to hang on. I’ve had that experience in seeing God give me what I needed through that on some occasions.

Pastor Scott: I think that those areas, I’m kind of a Psalm 119 man, and in the darkest hours, that’s the great refreshing to me, to just pour back over the promises and those areas. For the rest of you, what do you find? What is in those areas now? As pastors, of course, our lives are on an always-constant plane of increase. We never have low moments. [Pastor LaRock: No trials.] No trials or valleys. We always wake up in the morning and the first thing we want to do is our devotions and prayer and looking for… Where do you see in your own lives these areas of disciplining and what do you do when you find yourself spiritually apathetic? You sometimes can’t even figure out how you got there. You wake up one morning and realize. How did I get here? What do you do in those particular instances? It’s kind of what we’re talking about at this juncture. Anybody have any other areas?

Pastor Gardner: I have one scripture that I go back to often, quite often, and that’s 1 Thessalonians 5:24 "Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it." Of course, that’s a daily process. When I understood that, because when I first memorized that, and that became so real to me, I always thought of it in the past tense. He’s done that, but then when I’ve looked at it a little further, I saw that this is a daily thing. He’s faithful every day, but when I find that I’m not, that becomes a discouraging thing to realize that you haven’t been, whether it’s for an hour or a day or whatever it may be. Unfaithfulness for a moment is not good, but when I go back and just look at that one character trait and recognize how faithful He is and begin to meditate on His faithfulness, and then His faith and then begin to come back to His faithfulness to me. When you’ve failed or you’re discouraged or you’re in a low or whatever, I go back and look at His faithfulness to me. You can go back—I can’t think of a million things—but I’ve got about a half a dozen things that often I’ll think about, and there’s no question. I mean, there’s not even a debate. Was God faithful in this situation? You don’t even have to think about it. You already know the answer, but you ask the question because you’re building yourself back up, recognizing His faithfulness, and then you begin to see. One of the character traits that you want in yourself is to be faithful as He is faithful and then begin from that process to sort out where did this get off course and so forth? Without knowing—you can’t leave out the love and everything else, but His faithfulness—because He remains faithful when you’re a dog.

Pastor Scott: Yeah, and that’s the focal point - His immutability. He is the faithful God. That’s what gives us the encouragement to always turn back and to come home as the prodigal, or whatever, because we know He doesn’t change. We’re always going to be received in the same light. When you understand that our Father having created us, and He knows what we’re made of, and He’s for us. People lose sight of the fact that the price was paid to deliver us. When He paid that price to deliver you, He’s sure not going to sit back and leave you in it. His purpose is to get you out. Sometimes we seem to think that God’s attitude is, "well, just stay in it." No, He paid to get us out of there. He wants us out more than we want out. I think that’s part of the realizing of that faithfulness.

Pastor Miller: I think spiritual apathy comes a lot of times when we’re spending too much time on ourselves. Jesus said in Revelation there that, that lukewarmness comes when we forget how much we need Him, and we say, I’m rich; I have no need of you. It’s like David when he wasn’t in the battle, but decided to stay back in the palace. That’s when he got himself into trouble. When we’re being pressed beyond ourselves in ministry, in service to God, that’s when we know how much we need Him and depend on Him and draw on Him and abide in the vine. That’s when the fruit manifests. When you just kind of indulge yourself, it’s very easy to get lukewarm very fast. [Pastor Scott: When you find yourself there, what do you do to refresh yourself?] You know that list you gave about ten minutes ago of do you read the Bible more? Do you pray more? Do you listen to God more? For me in my life, I find that I have to go and listen to God more because His voice is what keeps you on track. It’s amazing when you’re in His presence, and He speaks to you, it’s just like with one word, He just sets in order all of your thoughts, all of your motives, all of the attitudes of the heart. How He can do that, I don’t know. It’s a miracle, but it’s amazing. You can come in here blind and in bondage and leave seeing and full of light and joy. That’s what you need. You’ve got to come and hear His voice. It’s something that a thousand Bible studies of just doing the grind of Bible study won’t get it. You got to hear Him speak to you.

Pastor Scott: That’s part of what we were referring to earlier of that quietness and the spirit of Jacob is, I won’t let you go until you’ve blessed me. The blessing is just Him communing with us, speaking to us, knowing that the course that we’re on is where He wants us. That’s the refreshing. Those disciplines and it doesn’t always happen in fifteen minutes. Those are the areas that I think are important that we can’t fall into that of holding God to our schedule and—in the midst of the turmoil—settling for a verse that’s in our mind and saying, Okay, well, I believe that’ll get me through this one, instead of staying until you’ve heard, and you’re refreshed and experience that, that you were talking about. You go out of there seeing and strengthened and joy. Until you’re there, God hasn’t spoken to you.

Pastor Miller: You said something the other day that I could really easily relate to. It may have been in a service when you’re talking about a time in prayer, and you’re reading through the Scriptures, and you could tell the Scriptures that were just going into your mind, but then there’s a huge difference between the Scriptures that were going right into your heart. That’s what we need to be sensitive to.

Pastor Scott: Right. That’s the renewing process. There is no time segment.

Pastor Heglund: I think one thing that’s interesting that happens to me when you’re in that apathetic state, and you mentioned cycling—and I wished the cycling part didn’t happen. It would be nice to climb, but the thing that’s interesting is how you wake up out of it. For me it’s kind of one of two things. Either it’s some kind of extraordinary grace, and all of a sudden you know joy and He somehow just gives you His presence, and you see what you were missing. It’s like when you’re sick for a long time, and you don’t know what it’s like to be well, and all of a sudden, you’re well, and you say, Man, it’s interesting to live this way. [Pastor Scott: Feels pretty good…] Feels pretty good—didn’t know you could feel like this—and I think, so often we settle for so much less of God. Even if you look at your life now and your life three years ago and you say wow, look how great it can be! I wonder how much better it’s going to be, and I wonder how much I’m settling for. Another thing that wakes me up is just when you fall on your face—just the sin. You fall flat on your face, and there’s nothing you can do about it, and you say, Woe is me and that desperate—have you ever been desperate for God—and just crying out in that desperation, Lord, just pick me up, please. I can’t believe this happened to me. It’s funny. One other way that something that the Lord’s used in my life to wake me up out of that apathetic state is every once in awhile I’ll have these dreams. I don’t know if other people experience this or not. You mentioned before about how it takes one moment and I have really strange dreams. I couldn’t begin to share on some of them, but some of them are really strange. These are really, really real. You know how you mentioned that one moment in the flesh and you can really do something stupid? It’s only God’s grace that keeps us from our final fall. Sometimes I dream that I have this big sin or something. I committed adultery, and it’s terrible. They’re scary dreams or whatever. I see it all taken away in a lot of respects—the ministry, the presence of the Lord—it’s just all gone. It’s so real, and it’s horrifying. I wake up sweating and crying almost, and then I look around the room and all of a sudden, the furniture starts coming into view, and I’m going, I can’t believe I did it. I’m still looking around or whatever it might be. It’s not always that, but I’ve had that kind of a dream, and all of a sudden, everything is I say, Whoa, wait a minute here. I didn’t do this really—that was just a dream. It’s like when you’re first saved. You look around and the sky is bluer, and the grass, and you just see, Wow, look at His grace and His life and the privilege that I have to serve and just to know Him, just to have His presence and what it would be like if it was gone, and how that just slowly kind of erodes sometimes in our lives. We’re vexed. We just go through and focus on ourselves.

Pastor Scott: The flesh takes everything for granted. It’s insatiable, and it’s desire for more. It thinks it’s the preeminent object on the planet. It’s just nasty. We all think that about ourselves. Everybody is the same. That’s the thing that’s always been kind of interesting to me in looking at people is how many people really don’t understand the state of their depravity. They really kind of think they’re all right, and when you read James, he says you’re not. That understanding of guilty of one, guilty of all. You can take the person who’s created the most heinous acts known to man and the person who’s the most moral, philanthropic-type individual who doesn’t appropriate the grace of God, and they’re both going to the same Hell. And that need of being delivered from the self-indulgence of the original sin—the thinking that I’m worthy, and that I deserve this, or I deserve more, whatever it might be—that principle of self-worth that everybody’s trying to put into other people today. You’re worthless. I want to help you with your worthlessness. You need a real class on how worthless you are. I don’t mean the type that so many children have heard from their parents type of worthlessness, but the realization of our true state in the Adamic nature. Until we come to that, then I don’t think that there’s the real appetite for the renewed mind. I think we’re just kind of content that I’m not that bad really. The fact is it’s only the grace of God that’s kept us from committing those destructive acts to that point. We can’t play around with it, so be careful what you’re feeding your flesh with. We were going to talk about that liberty. It’s gotten later than I realized, but let’s talk for just a moment. I made that one comment this morning. Any of you have a comment on that aspect about liberty and when our liberty dominates us then it’s no longer liberty?

Pastor LaRock: You made a comment in the back room tonight also about that you think some people probably confuse—and the restrictions we may place on ourselves because of our pursuit—with legalism and the fact that… I thought that was really an important thing to address because I think that’s probably very true that people do think, Well, if I put that rule on myself that I have to abstain from this, now I’m in legalism. That’s not true. You’re in legalism when you think that abstaining from that thing makes you righteous, and that that’s established your righteousness; but if you’re abstaining from something—even if it’s an amoral thing—because you’re striving for the mastery, that’s not legalism. All of us have things. There are things in my life that are amoral, that maybe some of the people on the platform even partake of, but I don’t. There may be some things that I partake of that they don’t because our makeups are different in the way that God has made us and the besetting sins that we deal with. Because we’re aware of that, we place restrictions and rules for ourselves. Now, if we trust in that for our righteousness, that’s legalism; but if we do it because we just want to turn away from that because it is a besetting sin, or it’s something that was a besetting sin in our lives, something that bound us, then to put a rule on yourself that you’re not going to partake of that, that’s not legalism. That’s just something that can really enhance your pursuit and something that you’ve just put it to rest forever. I’m not going to partake of that. That is out of my life, and as far as I’m concerned, it never will be a part of my life. I used to drink a lot before I got saved. I don’t drink anymore, not even a little bit. I don’t think about it even. I mean, I don’t think, "You know, I think I’ll get a six of Bud today at Safeway. No, I think I got a few left in the refrigerator." I don’t even think about it. I haven’t drunk since I got saved, and I don’t think about it; and I don’t plan to. Do I think that if I have a beer that I’m going to go back to all my old ways? No, I don’t think that would happen, but that’s just a part of my old life; and that’s behind me, and I don’t want to be involved with that anymore because I’m going this way. There are some things that, some rules that we put on ourselves, some restrictions that we place on ourselves, not that even if we partook of them would it necessarily be sin, but it doesn’t edify, and it’s not expedient, and it’s not consistent with the direction that I’m going. It’s going to feed something in my flesh. It’s going to hang a weight on me. Like Jeff referred to earlier in why do you want to do that if this is the direction that you’re going? I think that it’s important for us to look at that and be able to realize that we can have restrictions and rules that we place on ourselves, and we should have those things; and it doesn’t mean that we’re in legalism. It means that we’re being temperate because we’re striving for the mastery.

Pastor Scott: That’s the key, the temperance. We’re in training, and those are the areas that… The interesting thing that Jeff made an observation in looking at some of the Young Adults and in some of the Youth is that the ones that always want to contend for their liberties are the ones that are bound by their flesh. They’re the ones that are always crying liberty, and I have rights. Those are all "flesh" statements. Paul’s statement on liberty was not a demanding of his right to be free. It was a recognizing of His, of the grace of God that gave him that liberty as it was held up to that Pharisaical righteousness. That’s the context of all of that. What you stated in your first comments was that it was that trusting in the abstinence for righteousness or the works for righteousness, and Paul saying, I did all that, and I have liberties now I understand, but I’m not going to be under the power of any of these things. That’s the real issue. What is the power in our life? What’s holding us today as the true appetite? Those of us have different things that we’re interested in—some people play in golf and some their gardens and some, whatever.

We know all the jokes about fishermen and golfers how passionate they are. I love that one, I think it was a commercial for golf, if I’m not mistaken. That one commercial I saw that I—it’s great, you know. This guy—some of you may have seen it—this guy’s sitting on this little old country golf course, and all it has is a starter stand. There’s not even a clubhouse. It’s just a starter stand. It’s a porch about big enough for four guys, and it is pouring rain. These guys are sitting there under this thing, and they’re drenched. The one guy turns to the other guy says, "It’s going to let up any minute now. I know it is." It’s dark. It’s like four-o’clock, five o’clock in the morning, and some of these places, you have to get there that early. (There’s another one that shows a guy showing up in his pajamas to play.) And it’s pouring and pouring and it goes on for a little while. The other guy says, "Oh, I think it’s lightening up. It looks like it’s stopping." So he goes away, and he comes back finally. He’s got this cup of coffee, and it’s overflowing with the rain trying to get back across from this coffee machine or whatever; and he makes his other great statement that it’s letting up, and the other guy finally decides he’s going home. He turns on his buddy and says, "What? You’re not committed." (I can’t remember what it’s saying.) And then around the corner comes this other guy and soaking wet, sits down beside him, and he looks over at that guy and says, "You know, I think it’s letting up. We’ll be playing here any minute now."

I got to thinking about that, and Janet said, "You know, that reminds me of when you and Leo went out when it was like eighteen degrees, and you had gloves on and all of this kind of stuff, and you were playing." We were, and we’d hit the ball and go, Clank! I had a number of lies in the snow. We were in snow. That’s an avid golfer. We get passionate about these things, and we just wouldn’t let anything stop us. Bruce remembers one day. I can still remember the look on his face after we walked twenty-seven holes in hundred percent humidity and hundred degrees, and I thought it was going to be one of those things of hit the ball and drag Bruce to finish the last couple of holes. I mean, avid golfers. Like the guy, you know, they were standing and this guy’s getting ready to tee off in the seventeenth hole, and this funeral procession went by, and the guy took his hat off and held it over his heart, and put his hat on. The guy playing with him said, "Well, that’s really nice. I’ve never seen anything like that." He said, "Yeah, we would have been married thirty-two years today." That’s an avid golfer. The other guy said, "You look tired today." He said, "Yeah, it was a tough round. It was just a tough day in general." He said, "What happened?" He said, "Well, you know, George, he had a heart attack and died on the twelfth hole." He said, "Oh, that’s terrible; that would make it a real tough day." "Yeah, man, it was." He said, "Hit the ball; drag George." It’s one of those things. What’s important to you? We joke about that, but people, it’s like that. Has our mind been renewed to that pursuit of the Kingdom of God?

Pastor LaRock: In the Tour De France, they’re riding over in France right now around France, and they ride, I mean, these guys… They’re riding up the mountains. They ride several hours, like six hours a day—some days as much as a hundred and fifty miles. The days that are less is because they’re going up mountains and stuff. Lance Armstrong, who’s in the lead the last I read, by about four minutes, they said that on his day off—I think they have one day off in the twenty-one days straight that they cycle—and he took a sixty-five mile bike ride just to maintain training for that one day off just to stay sharp. That’s a champion.

Pastor Scott: Those are champions, and that’s the only way we’re going to be a champion in the Kingdom. That’s the environment that we’ve tried to build in the fellowship and to settle for anything less, you just can’t do it. To be a winner, just a champion, to try to win. We’ve talked about participating. We were out yesterday racing some, and we were out at MRI. When we were down there, we found out that we were having to race against all these guys that have these linko shifts and stuff, so we’re getting ready to go into the final round, and Star says, "Be conservative. Just be conservative on the light, and make sure. Don’t try to cut too fine of a light." The guy that we drew that we had to race was running dead on his numbers within two or three thousands of his dial, so I’m pulling up there, and I’m saying to myself, Okay, be conservative, and just make sure my… I went up there, I thought, You know, I’ve got only one chance to beat this guy, and that’s to cut a five-0 light. I didn’t want to just run; I wanted to win, and I had one chance to wi

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