Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Panel Discussion

Hallelujah! We're going to take a few minutes this evening and go over some of the home fellowship group topics that we were dealing with, and possibly men's breakfast. Men's breakfast went a whole different way than we were planning and some points that came out that were very beneficial. We want to make sure that as we get ready to transition into a new subject that all of the questions have been answered on authority and the different applications. I understand from the reports that I was just receiving that a lot of the home fellowship groups went very well. There seemed to be a good grasp. A few things that still had some questions in it that we might want to address and make sure that we have this taken care of before we transition on. If the other Pastors will come on up and we'll be giving an opportunity for any questions, some observations that they had of the home fellowship groups that I think will be a blessing to all of us. A great time that we're in and remembering the spirit that really precipitated why we were emphasizing this part of Scripture again, this secret power of lawlessness that's operating. It's going to continue to escalate. Every one of us having to contend with these things as we go along. I think that's something that's important. One of the things that came out, somebody asked, don't we have a right to an opinion? I mean, whether it's on the job or in the home, don't I have a right to my own opinion in some of these things? It was a question that all flesh asks. Richard, you were commenting in the back how you deal with some of that. I think it would be interesting, then we'll go along and address some of the topics and see if there's any question. You might be going over that aspect of that. I know that Chuck was saying that the group he was in that he felt maybe the Noah principle we had addressed, the feet of clay aspect, could be clarified some. Jeff said, however that their group covered it very well. So we might address a couple of these things or any other questions that might arise. But this was one of the questions that came out in one of the home fellowship groups, don't we have a right to an opinion. I'm a human being. In some cases I'm an adult. In some cases even intelligent. Shouldn't I be able to form an opinion?

Pastor Miller: A lot of it, probably, some of it is semantics and how you define opinion. I was sharing with Pastor, in my position, to safe guard my own heart, there are many times I won't even allow myself to form an opinion. We all have preferences. We all have input that sometimes is asked for, sometimes it's not. In the situation with the husband and wife, if the husband is formulating a decision, then it's only wise to ask for input for from your wife. There's many times I was making decisions and Terry had a much better idea than I did and we went with her idea. She didn't set the course and she didn't make the decision. I did. But she had a better idea. So it's only wise to get input and to get counsel. If you have a preference and you're somebody under authority and you have a certain preference, there's nothing wrong at all with letting that be made known to the authority. But in the semantics of what I'm saying, I'm drawing a difference between preference and opinion. An opinion, in my thinking is more of a second-guessing. Why is he doing that? That's a dumb thing to do. This is much better. He should be doing it this way. He's just doing it wrong. When you begin to form an opinion like that now you've crossed the line. It's second-guessing. It's sowing strife. It's not divine order. So to safeguard your own heart, many times it's very wise not to even allow yourself to form an opinion. Some people, that might scare them and think, gee is that blind obedience? Could I be led astray? No if there's something that's contrary to the word of God, that's always very obvious. That's pretty blatant. In the day-to-day course when decisions are being made and it's not your realm of authority, it's not your sphere of responsibility; safeguard your heart. Don't even allow yourself to formulate an opinion. It's only going to get you in trouble as you begin to build on that thing and begin to exalt your own perception and your own opinion.

Pastor Scott: The opinion, you know, I shared with the guys in the back that if we use the terminology opinion, you used a good definition of preference. The key I think is yes, you're able to have one. But you're not able to defend it. I think that's part of what you're saying. I'm not going to defend this. I am not going to protect. I'm not going to have to try to prove that it's right. I'm not going to second-guess that. I have a preference but it's not my realm, as you were saying. I think that it always helps to put it into the practical and the ridiculous to help us to see things. Children: Do children have an opinion? Of course! Children think that more of the budget should be spent on candy. Now should a kid get bummed out and really get worked up every day because that's not happening? I mean, it's not going to happen. So why get all involved in having this perspective that you have nothing to say about - how the budget is going to be spent. Man. They paid the mortgage payment again this week instead of buying that candy. To allow yourself to get involved in that when it's not your sphere of responsibility is to begin to allow negative energy and give place to the devil and all this stuff that's not going to change anything anyway. It's just going to hurt you.

Pastor Miller: It's amazing how highly we value our opinion. What makes us think that we're so smart? And what makes us think that we really know better than that other person?

Pastor Scott: It's the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that does that. Because until that was partaken of, there really wasn't any. There was innocence and obedience, trust and reliance on Father. And now my eyes are opened and I'm as God and each one sees themselves as God the authority. That's what we contend with on a daily basis until we're regenerated and then when you encounter authority you've encountered God and you can move accordingly. It's in every person. When we're talking about this subject, it's nothing foreign to any of us. Because every one of us deals with it. The ironic thing is though there's one time when it's a little different that people see it differently. That's when they are the authority. Then they have a little different perception on how it operates. Other than that it's questionable unless they're it. That's what we're dealing with. Chuck, were you going to share?

Pastor LaRock: That's because we're right so much in our own eyes. I was just thinking, just to echo what Richard was saying there, to not really let yourself get involved. If it's not your call and it's not an eternal thing-all things really are eternal ultimately in God's sovereignty. That was one thing we were talking about in the back. Even the temporal things, God is working sovereign purposes in them. If it's something that doesn't go contrary to the word of God then we can't be making a big deal of it and a lot of times if we do spend times thinking about it and second-guessing, what's the result going to be? It can only be bad. It can only be insubordination. It can only be discontentment and so why bother going down that road? It's not your place. If the decision has been made about what light fixture we're going to get in the sanctuary, so what if you wanted silver instead of brass. I mean it's a non-issue. So you don't even bother making a list of why silver would have been better, or chrome would have been better. It's a non-issue and so we're best not to even go down that road.

Pastor Scott: And holding on to that for the next twenty-five years, you know. It's just death to self. It really, I think when we see it as Richard was saying. When we really see it as the fruit of that tree then it should frighten us enough to say, I'm not giving place to that. That's all there is to it. I'm going to recognize it for what it is. It's so natural to me, in my members. You just begin to habitually pull it down and to trust in that sovereignty of God of ordering our steps and leading us into those things that have eternal value. The rest of it doesn't matter it's all going to burn anyway. I think that's a very important aspect. Any questions along these lines? Let's look at this. Don't I have an opinion? How many of you can see that it's really safe not to take that luxury now when in the past you thought it was something that was noble to stand up for? I hope that it's becoming a reality. Any questions on this? Or do we need to clarify this a little bit more? That was one of the questions that was asked in the groups and we want to make sure that from the biblical perspective you see it. Remember Romans 13, very clear, "...the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1b). You resist the power - you resist the ordinance of God. So God has established order. God has established government. God has established authority, whether it is again the military. And we said in the military what is our protection? I was in the military. What's the protection? Some officer gives me a command that goes against the moral laws, what do we have that protects us? Who remembers what that's called? Uniform, what? So you have the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It says no, an officer has no right to ask that of you. Here's our uniform code right here. So no authority can ask you to do anything that's not already specified in here. So we all have our roles. We have the authority of the word of God and then by having our own personal relationship, remember what did we say is the greatest protection you have, especially when we're talking about in ecclesiastical areas of protecting yourself from spiritual authority, false prophets, pastors, teachers whatever? The greatest protection you have is what? Your own personal knowledge and relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and with the word of God. Because His sheep know His voice and another they won't follow. And so you're not going to die up here with the spaceship people or drink Kool-Aid with Jim Jones and all these guys because you know Jesus and you know the word of God and you know that what's being asked of you isn't the word of God. I'm not doing that. The wife says when the husband gives a command-years ago, one of the big things in some of the Charismatic circles, there was a big teaching on submission. Submission, wife, submission. And some of the husbands were wanting to involve their wives in wife swapping and this is within the churches. I think not, you know! So, they've abdicated that authority because they've done what? They've come out from under. You can only be in authority when you're under authority. Ultimately the Lord Jesus is the head of His church. Nobody has a right to come out from under that and make any demands contrary to the word of God. So that's our safety, that's our protection. If we don't flow in that we're resisting the ordinance of God, whenever we begin to elevate our opinion and our experiences and all these things against the wisdom of God. So, it's important to see. Any questions on that though? We want to give you an opportunity. Does anybody have anything that you would like more practically applied in that area?

Okay, good. We talked about honoring authority and one of the questions that came up was when we were dealing with the Noah principle of covering. The spirit of Ham verses Shem and Japheth. How do we look at authority in that particular way, and the application of it? You said, Jeff, that you thought the group you were in that it was addressed pretty well. What was addressed in that group, because in a couple of others there seemed to be a question? Do you remember what was shared? If not we'll just go ahead and speak toward that.

Pastor Heglund: I can't remember the specifics but I do remember the conclusion of the matter. The question came up, what if somebody in authority makes, and I can't remember if it was put as a mistake or does something that you feel was not right. Not that it was sin but maybe it cost a bunch of money or it didn't achieve the end that you thought it should. What do you do at that point? And what's your attitude? And how do you deal with that? Do you call all your girlfriends and talk about how stupid your husband is? He did this and it cost all this money.

Pastor Scott: Okay that's A what's B? A: Call your friend and say how stupid your husband is. What's B?

Pastor Heglund: Right, and where the conversation led to was just a real trust in, as Chuck mentioned before, the sovereignty of God and understanding for the people involved. Some of these things that you perceive as mistakes are really God's will in working character in you and/or just revealing your heart so you can understand. All these things that I really don't understand that seem to put a hardship on me, the Lord was just showing me the pride in my own heart and just dealing with my own flesh. So part of the thing was keep your mouth shut basically and understand that this isn't you know kind of like having the opinion about something that's not in your realm it wasn't a mistake. It's not a mistake, this thing. Then if there was a sin, obviously, not doing the things of going around a gossiping about it, but covering that up because of that same purpose. It can be something that works in you. I don't remember the specifics.

Pastor Scott: It's interesting what you said. I do remember that as you were sharing in the back, that one of the things was, we have to draw a conclusion between authority making a mistake and authority sinning. Okay, we're going to give a quiz, see how sharp you are out there. Okay? Who should I call on? Any volunteers? You don't even know the question, who wants to volunteer to answer this? No fools tonight, okay. One? Who was that? (Laughing) Okay, Edgar you can answer this. You're a wise man. In the generic sense-you know, we talked about authority making a mistake-from somebody else's perspective what's the definition of a mistake.

Edgar Wotring: The definition of a mistake would be from a planned program the outcome was other than what was planned.

Pastor Scott: Okay, that's good, and let's add one other ingredient "in my opinion."

Pastor Scott: Because, if I'm the one drawing the conclusion that what you decided was a mistake, don't I have to assume that it's a mistake from my perception, my perspective, my limited knowledge of what an outcome should be of this particular.... So we're right back to when I make a determination that you made a mistake, I'm assuming that I have all of the knowledge of how this thing should have concluded, including eternal. When we start concluding that people are making mistakes, we're really elevating our perspective to a pretty high level. Most of us are comfortable in the realm of two plus two and we say twelve is a mistake. That wasn't a good answer. But it's very important for us to see, and the point we're trying to make is, when we think my husband made a mistake because that decision---it's interesting they said that money seemed to be a big issue coming up in all these discussions---my husband made a decision and that decision cost us $1000.00 and therefore I can't be in a comfort level that I was prior to that. That must be a mistake. Maybe it wasn't a mistake because maybe you needed to be brought out of your comfort level and trust God and not the thousand dollars. So what is a mistake? You see there's the natural perception of a mistake and then there's the spiritual, eternal that's working that we don't all know if God's authority may have been stupid so you could be free from fear. Did you all get the point? So let's be very careful when we start concluding that a mistake has been made. Maybe that mistake was the will of God. It's very important that we don't move out of our sphere and start drawing these conclusions. Any comments along those lines?

Pastor Heglund: Well, I just remembered that one of the other things that came up along those lines was dealing with the workplace. The comment was well it seems like our boss is clueless or it seems like this man's clueless. One of the people in the group was dealing with co-workers coming and asking him, well what do you think about the boss's dumb decision? The comment was made; I think that I don't get paid to decide about what the boss is deciding about. I do my job and collect my paycheck. I heard that comment from a number of different people about this teaching being very freeing in the aspect of " It's not my job to run the company and it's my job to do my job. I can go to work being at peace, not thinking that I always have to be striving to climbing the ladder or second-guessing this man." And both of those seemed to go hand in hand. Then also that some thing, the comment about my boss doesn't seem to have a clue or there are times it's real obvious to me that my boss or my husband doesn't have a clue when we're going through this decision making process. Now all the sudden I have to make my opinion known or go tell other people. Hey you know this man doesn't have a clue. What are we going to do? We have to save the company. This man doesn't have a clue. What am I going to do? I'm going to have to save our family. That coming back again to kind of putting my hand over my mouth and realizing that the Lord's in control of this family and the Lord's going to take care of my paycheck. I need to find my place and fall in it. Then I liked what you said in the back, as we were discussing that about leadership, you don't always know. I think that's one thing that makes it very easy about being under your authority is that you're wise and you do ask opinions. There are those times where it's not our place. Our opinion is not asked. There's to be none given like Richard said. But often you're asking our opinion and you're very free to make it clear, hey you know, I don't really know how we're going to do this. I know basically we're going in this direction but I'm waiting on the Lord. It makes it very easy to submit because you understand in that whole scenario that we're trusting in God. It's part of that transparent aspect. I know I went to two or three different things....

Pastor Scott: If we're under authority we can't expect the authority to give us all of the answers of what's going to happen every day, every moment in our lives for the next fifteen years, that's going to be the consequences of this decision, because they don't know. And when God speaks, you don't know. When God spoke to Joseph, he didn't see clearly the pit, Potiphar's house or the prison. He saw the promise, the throne and not all the stuff in between. And when God says go that direction and you go, Praise God! Then you're in the pit you go this must be a mistake. No the pit's part of the process of getting you to the end, which is the throne, the preservation of the people of God. So we think, mistake, oh it must have been God. Mistake, the Lord was with Joseph, praise God! And that phrase keeps coming up and the Lord was with him in the mistake, the pit, the mistake, Potiphar's house, the mistake, the prison. So, whenever authority is "hearing from God" and moving in these directions, they don't---Moses didn't have a clue. Joseph didn't have a clue. Paul didn't have a clue. He was going to Asia. Ended up in Macedonia. If we're moving in fear and wanting authority to always give us detailed proof and guarantees, it's not going to be there. It ultimately comes back to us trusting God in our daily walk in the specifics of these things. That's the peace that we can arrive at as we are moving in submission. The one in authority is in the same boat you're in. They're just saying, I'm going with what I know. As Abraham went out not knowing where he went. Following Him that's invisible. It's an exciting walk that we're in. Any other comments along those lines?

Pastor LaRock: Just how God gives the direction, but He doesn't spell out what things are going to be like for the next forty years. So the person that's in authority that received that direction can't tell you that either. Moses was accused of making a terrible decision. That was not the outcome that was anticipated. We thought we were going to a land that flows with milk and honey. We don't even have anything to drink out here. We're going to die of thirst. Moses didn't really know when he left Egypt about the process that was about to unfold and all of the types that were fulfilled and all that. But he did know God said to take His people to the Promised Land. So he did that. He couldn't answer all the questions that they had but they were clearly the one that God was displeased with because of all the questions.

Pastor Scott: The definition that we had of a mistake, and it was a good one that Edgar came up with, and yet we're talking about the human perspective. When was it that Moses made a mistake in the eyes of the people and when was it that he was doing what was right? When they were momentarily at ease it wasn't a mistake. When I personally am at ease and things are looking good and I'm eating, this guy is smart. Now I'm not eating. It must be a mistake. Okay? It all comes back to personal ease and preference. And that's sin. And it's a lack of trust. And the Scripture makes it very clear in Hebrews; it was because of their unbelief. So that's part of when we're talking about this generically, we have to be very careful when we're dealing.... And right now we're dealing with domestic and spiritual authority in these particular areas. It's very important. Trusting that God has you where He wants you. It's just as clear to me today as if it had happened yesterday. I've shared this story. I can still remember sitting down with three other guys. I was the fourth. We're all sitting there scrubbing garbage cans on Treasure Island in San Francisco. This young Petty officer was there telling us what to do. Between the four of us we had seventeen years of college. This was Vietnam days. Everybody was going. To me it was just ironic, this guy had finished eighth grade. But he had the stripes and he was representing the power. Therefore he was the power. You do what you're told. And you don't say we have a better way to do this. Now if you've ever been in the military you can come up with a whole lot of better ideas. But that's not your job. The efficiency of the government, we could really streamline this thing but it's not our job. Our job is when they say attention - you come to attention. That's the trust in Father. We have to come to that place.

Pastor Gardner: You know I was going to say we use the word "opinion" a lot. Richard was referring to it a few minutes ago and Jeff just referred to it. And when Jeff was referring to it, he made a comment about you asking our opinion. That doesn't happen. Let's just clear that up for everybody. Cause like you've said so many times, anybody opinion and x amount of money will get you a cup of coffee. What you're after, and I'm sharing this to say this is what should be going on in the homes, is what are you seeing? Because you recognize that Father has gifted each person differently. It's all a part. It would be unwise to not to ask, what are you hearing from God? What are you seeing as it relates to this situation? Not what's your opinion on this situation? Because an opinion is your opinion. There's nothing spiritual about an opinion.

Pastor Scott: Yes, we'll basically ask these men, when I'm sitting there and we're confronted with something; I'll normally share with them a basic direction. I'll say here's what I'm perceiving. Can anybody give me any biblical principals that would show that this isn't a viable solution? What do you see in the scriptures? Can somebody come up with a biblical principle, and at times somebody does. It fine-tunes the course. Most of the time, I think I'm safe in saying; we're not that far off. Most of the time it is just fine-tuning. It's not like we're way out there in left field. These are the things that you do. This is wisdom. There's wisdom and safety in a multitude of counsel. So if you're the head of your home, husbands, don't be making decisions without going to your wife and saying.... Don't ask her opinion. I'm not interested in my wife's opinion. You know, when it pertains to spiritual principles of the house. I'm not talking about decorating. Those are things that she asks what do you think? There's no way you're turning my house into a Laura Ashley display. Janet knows that so she'll say, can you tolerate this much? And usually, yes. It's one of those areas, and when you live so long together you kind of gravitate toward a natural compromise anyway. You begin to look alike and think alike in some of these areas. It's good that you brought that up because opinions are not what we're looking for.

Pastor Gardner: Yes, because as Richard mentioned earlier, because it's the way I've operated my life, tried to anyway. When you're under authority and even when you are the authority and others are expressing opinions, an opinion will get you in trouble. But what is Father speaking? And the wife, as you've spoken a lot to that here in the last few weeks, what she is giving to the husband shouldn't be an opinion. It's what Father should be speaking to her when she is on her face before Him. How to be a better helpmeet. What words, how can I better help him carry out the direction of this home, the course that You've set us on? No what my opinion is and how am going to get that across. Because the opinion is nothing.

Pastor Scott: The opinion only comes in to where do you want to go miniature golfing or bowling? Now I have a preference or an opinion. When does that opinion or preference not count and it's not an issue? We haven't paid the mortgage yet. Now we have another principle that erases all of the opinions. The preferences are let's go bowling. The facts are we have to buy some food. All of the crying and soliciting isn't going to change what my, as the head of the house, responsibility is to set this course. Now the husband wants to go bowling. And the mortgage hasn't been paid. The wife says the biblical principle is; we need to pay the mortgage. The husband says we're going bowling. What do you do? You go bowling. And God's going to drop a ball on that guy's foot and take care of his authority. You can kind of sit in the back seat and go....

Pastor LaRock: Can God use the wife to do that?

Pastor Scott: Ha, Ha, yes! Hey look...! So it's that area of trusting God again. Opinions, preferences are in those non-eternal areas that are not in conflict with biblical principles. Then most of the time you just find the different... it's all living together and knowing when to acquiesce and when to prefer others and these areas. That's all part of maturity and loving one another and growing together. So that's the spirit of us having preferences and opinions, I think. Any other comments along these lines? Any questions? Anything that may be a question or whatever?

Pastor Scott: You know if the guy's truly born again and these areas that you know he's regenerated then they're in a situation to where this particular wife should sit down and say, here's the fruit. Here's the fruit of what's happened in my life, in the children's lives. Here's what God did through all of that to bring you to where you are right now as a regenerated person. If I were you I would listen to this counsel. I would seek the counsel of those that are overseers here of our lives in this particular flock. And then he has to make a decision. If his decision is to go then she has to go with him and trust God. Those are the different areas. But, if it's a situation to where there is spiritual life in this person, hopefully they would seek counsel in these areas. What is it? What would we say to a gentleman in that particular situation? The first thing we would ask him is, if you're regenerated, you're born again then I have a question to ask you. What's most important, your job or the foundation of your family, spiritually? Is God in other fellowships? Of course He is! Christians out there in other churches, of course there are. This is proven. This is where they've been. If you can say that God is leading you for another reason than just to increase your paycheck, then maybe you have an argument. Otherwise it's probably not a good decision. It would then just have to be his decision. If he chose and he was truly a born again man then the wife is obligated to submit and to follow her husband's leading in that.

Pastor Chuck: Would it be appropriate after lets say he says well I hear what you're saying but we're going to do this, if after a year the wife see the fruit of this has not been that good. We were growing in the Lord more back at that other place. Would it be out of order for her to bring the subject up again and say hey you know this is something that you might want to reconsider here?

Pastor Scott: That wouldn't be out of order especially if for instance let's let the year go by and there's no indication of growth in his life. Yep. You say I see a number of things here. Number one is there's supposed to be a pruning to where there's more fruit. I don't see more fruit. Is there an abiding in the vine? Is this truly now, and this is where it gets to be a tough call, is this guy truly exhibiting spiritual fruit? Did I follow a spiritual leader or somebody who was religious and I couldn't tell at that time? So, if you're going to make a mistake you have to make it in the area of submission and obedience. Now there's a tougher conclusion to be drawn. It's not are we living in the wrong place? It's, is this guy born again? Then once that becomes something that's reconciled in the process then that would dictate. If it's, yes, I really believe but he's just not growing. Then there has to be some more admonition in these particular areas that are going on. And then, trusting God, because you can grow in some adverse circumstances. God can protect us in that pit and in that prison. Those are areas that we have to deal with. I would share very very clearly to that man, don't offend the little ones. You're going to answer to God. You'd be better off to have a milestone tied around your neck and be cast into the sea. If you're going to offend that weaker vessel who is demanded of God to submit to you and for your own whims and lust and ambition you're going to destroy them, you're going to answer to God for that. I'd make that very clear and then you trust God. Let's take it now - it's two years. It's deteriorating and things aren't looking any better. Now there's a decision. Am I going to die here? There has to be now a confrontation to find out whether this individual is truly a heretic. In a hypothetical like this it's tough because we can slant it anyway we want it to go by whatever evidence we produce. But in the generic sense you asked, yes. That's the wife's role, to submit. Any other questions? Along those lines or any of the others that we've come up to at this point, or anything else that you went over in the home fellowship group, or the teaching in and of itself. I understand there were a lot of great testimonies that came into the home fellowship groups and that was exciting to hear some of the good things that were taking place in lives. Any others on what we've covered so far?

Pastor Scott: One of their science projects? They're dealing with fermentation.

Pastor Chuck: That happened once. Not the drunkenness, but the fermentation. Made root beer.

Pastor Scott: Yes, I think the word that you're using about comfortable, comfortable being prepared spiritually, some people are very comfortable going around rebuking people. Others not so. We know that sin cannot remain unaddressed in our midst. There are a couple of ways it could be done. A student would not be wrong to go approach that teacher and to say hey Mr. Konczal set 'em up! To go the teacher and go Mr. Konczal I just want you to know that I'm going to be praying for you and this is sin and I really think that you need to go talk to one of the pastors and share with them what's happened here. Because if you don't I'm going to have to. This then should be the limit. You don't need now this seventh grader counseling this individual. They can confront them but they're not going to counsel and give wisdom and direction in that particular area because now it's been referred to authority. That would be one way that they could and stay in a good area of safety and order in their own lives. There's somewhat of an uncomfortableness an intimidation, a fear of hey what if I go talk to this guy and he goes postal on me or something. I just shared that because I saw John when I was looking past you. There would be a natural uncomfortableness on how they might respond or a lack of preparation, in these areas again, to just go to authority here's what I think I saw, you might want to go talk to them. The fact then is that sin is being exposed. You went to somebody in authority; you didn't go and tell another student. That's gossip, slander, whatever, and either one of those would bring a positive result and not be contrary to biblical order. You're never out of order going up. Those are some things that I think are important for us. Did you guys want to comment along those lines?

Pastor LaRock: Talking to their parents would be okay too, right? For the students to talk to their parents?

Pastor Scott: It would be a thing really in needing to talk to the authority here because talking to parent, the parents really don't need to be involved at this juncture because the sin was not against the child in particular. The parents to become aware of this particular area would be something that would probably be in the order of the overseers bring the parents in with the child and saying here's what we've encountered. So they would know if the child is acting a little bit different, what's happened here? Cause this would be a very traumatic thing. It would be something that you would want the parents to be able to counsel and assist the child through. The parent in this particular incident would be involved in a care capacity of the child not a restoration capacity of the offender. Because there wasn't a direct sin toward the individual and so that would be a way in a situation like that, that you would want to make sure that the parents were then provide for the child and all of the things.... There would be questions and things that have to be addressed that they could have a hands on process. Steve were you going to comment on that?

Pastor Gardner: Yes, It seems to me when you're dealing with something that is obviously, there is no question, that what this person in authority, which a teacher would be, what that person is doing is sin. That's not even for debate. That probably the safest thing for the student to do would be to go to not another teacher but to the higher authority than the level of the teacher. There may still be that thing of approaching them and you know, you need to go and say something. Because if you don't I'm going to. I'm going anyway. Whether you do or you don't. I'm going to wind up involved in this thing but to me that seems, I'm sharing that because of some of the things we've dealt with here in the past not so much with....

Pastor Scott: Yes, we're not talking about giving them three months to get this....

Pastor Gardner: No, no, because in the past, this is for the student not to misunderstand this. In the past there have been times that the students have been aware of things that other students have done. They were either present or found out by way of gossip and then had to go back and tell, well if they were there and observed it; it was something that needed to be brought out. That other student needed to be rebuked and told you need to go see your parents or it may have been of such a nature that Pastor Jeff needed to know, whatever. They didn't go and share it with anybody. They felt the rebuking and telling them you need to get this straight, that was sufficient or that they were automatically going to do whatever, but never bothered to follow up. Now with a student that would be a little different. Unless you saw a student walk into the place drunk or saw them walking in and here they are in a bathroom smoking a cigarette or there's a make-out session going on over in this classroom, that's not something that you give somebody two or three days to go to somebody in authority. You've got three minutes.

Pastor Scott: Yes, you got two or three minutes.

Pastor Gardner: Yes, whichever one of us gets down there first.

Pastor Scott: Yes, Yes, if you can't beat me down there.

Pastor Gardner: Right, whoever gets there first that's who he's going to hear this from. And I'm not waiting to get home tonight to tell Mom and Dad and then I'll see Pastor Jeff tomorrow. No. If you're not sure....

Pastor Scott: You're never wrong to go up. That's the thing we have to always keep in mind because that's what authority is all about. The representation of the Head of the Church, Jesus is all about. Anytime we're going up we're approaching Jesus in this thing. And looking for His peace and wisdom in this situation, so it's important and has to be dealt with quickly. We had a teacher here years ago that was soliciting a student to lie for them to cover up some sin in their lives and from the time I heard it to the time I called for them to come to the office was like six minutes, verified it and in seven minutes they were fired and leaving the property. So those things you can deal with pretty good. There's no question as to what the course is in certain areas. It doesn't take a long time to deal with it. Any other questions along these lines? Yes.

Pastor Scott: Yes, that's definitely the spirit you want to move in. You don't want to be out selling tickets, you know. That's the spirit of Ham. There's something in the flesh that delights in seeing authority fall. It's that which we're guarding ourselves against with Shem and Japheth's spirit when they covered their father and Ham's delight in having found him to justify his own wickedness. And that begins to be the motive as to how we deal with it. There's no question it's going to be dealt with. The truth is going to be applied but in the process there doesn't have to be the involvement of all of this other giving place to that spirit of rejoicing in evil that's contrary to love. Love covers. It doesn't cover up. It covers. That would be the perfect thing to do if a young person found that and was able then ward others off so that it could be handled in an environment of love. Still going to bring justice but it's going to be done in love. Any other questions? What'd Dan do this time? Yes.

Pastor Scott: Right. Yes, and that's why the Scripture speaks of that meek and quiet spirit that the woman is to move in that environment. And the man then, the authority, respecting the weaker vessel. Whether it's domestic or again on the job. I've been out and saw the way that men spoke to their subordinates and been embarrassed. Not only embarrassed, mad that they would treat somebody . . . Who do they think they are to speak that way to these particular people? These aren't peons and slaves. Just because you are a senior assistant manager at Taco Bell, and you've got this great position that you can wield that authority around. The authority always treats those beneath them as the weaker vessel. They're in a subordinate role and you need to treat them with respect and to be able to appreciate what they're producing for the vision that's at hand. Like sweeping. You know, if those people aren't there, you're sweeping it yourself. So, you need to be thankful and appreciate whose working with you and respect that. At the same time the ones that are the subordinates, if they do honor that authority, and you know there's times that you can honor the authority and not the person, the position. Hopefully in a husband and wife relationship it's respect because of the character of the man and the pursuit of God. We see that there are feet of clay but we know they've got a heart for God. You respect that and you respond respectfully. You're going to get a whole lot of mileage out of that to where they're not threatened. It's not only a personal threat. You know, there's a jealously for who sent you. I know when anyone challenges my authority I'm jealous for the one that sent me. It doesn't stop with me. You're not questioning me. You're questioning the one that sent me. And if you start talking bad about my Dad, we're going to go toe to toe. That's why we're looking for that response that you're talking about. It will always gain more openness and a willingness to share in that kind of environment. But I think it goes both ways. It's a respect for authority but there also has to be a respect for the subordinates and how we treat them. I took a little piece down to get it welded and this guy called this guy, Jose, come in here! It was really a Jose. And he talked to this guy like he just fell off the truck and was here illegally. He could have been. But I was almost embarrassed for the guy, the way he treated him. I thought this isn't right. I think when we prefer others and love one another we're going to get a lot of mileage out of that. Is that addressing some of...?

Pastor Scott: Yes, and you know the thing we have to really deal with is, we sit there and go, who put this Bozo in charge? God did. And when I say that I'm just saying, it doesn't just happen. Our steps are ordered. I'm here because God put me here. And He put Bozo here. So, here we are and what we're really questioning is God, ultimately. And that's where we have to then start dealing with, you know, am I thinking of myself more highly than I ought to think, to the point where I'm not questioning am I more capable than this guy. That's obvious. I'm more capable than him. That's not the issue. The issue is why didn't God put me there? Why am I here and he's there? Well, that's God. So am I content in that? Well you know if we produce this and if that guy would do his job better and we could produce one more of these a month, the revenues would go up. All the shareholders would benefit by one tenth of one cent. That is not your call. Who are you to champion the cause of the whole world and every shareholder in the corporation? Do your job. Get your paycheck. Go home and do as good a job ruling your house as you think they ought to be doing ruling their company. Things would probably go real well. I think those are things that we all have to contend with. I think if we just respect one another. I know that's how we operate. Don't take yourself so seriously. You know I think that's one of the biggest---people take themselves too seriously. I'm really something and one of these days the world will come to know it. You ought to be thankful to God that you're where you are. If you do happen to have something on the ball, it's a gift. You ought to be thankful for it. Those are the areas that I think can really keep you when you're moving in relationships, treating people properly and respecting them, being kind to people. That's the way I've always been and I don't appreciate it when people treat me differently than that. We're to do unto others aren't we? Any other questions?

Pastor Scott: I didn't pick up all of that that was said. What I did pick up-the right to intervene of a parent has nothing to do with the inherent right of a parent. They're representing God and the parent cannot intervene beyond the authority God has given them to intervene or to train up a child in the way that they should go. So, parents have no right to inflict their will upon their children. They only have a right to represent God's will to their children and that's the Biblical representation of authority. I wasn't able to understand all that was spoken, but to clarify again, there's the humanistic perspective that parents have a certain authority over children that would in anyway be perceived as ultimate is incorrect from a Biblical perspective. That's why the Scripture says, "Children, obey your parents in the Lord..." (Eph.6:1). That's the sphere of the authority that the parents have as a representative of the authority of the Lordship of Jesus. As believers we only recognize that kind of authority. The secular realm will recognize another type, but we as Christians can only recognize that. Any other questions? Yes.

Pastor Scott: One of the things that's always important, we do it even in the fellowship here in dealing with spiritual authority, for yourselves as individuals in the fellowship, you remember that we continually share with our deacons, who are representing the Pastoral oversight, that they are always open to your approaching them and saying I have a question and I don't know if what you're representing to me agrees with what I'm hearing from teachings in different areas. Could we go to the Pastors and make sure that I'm hearing this properly, or that you're representing it properly. Their role and their responsibility at that time is to say, yes let's go. And they will accompany you. In another situation like this, you would never go to a deacon or anybody else until you approached the authority in your home and said I'm not really comfortable that this isn't a misapplication of Biblical principles. Could we please go to somebody and have this clarified? That's not a role of insubordination. Why? Because you came to that authority and you asked them to represent this. Their response is no you're just being rebellious, you do what I told you, etc. Okay, if there's ambiguity then we need to be very careful because an accusation against an elder is to be by two or three witnesses. To take that principle and try to bring it down to this, if I'm not sure that this authority is wrong, then I need to wait until I'm sure before I would then go to someone in another realm and represent that. So, I would go back again and say, after a period of time, I'm not sure. I'm really uncomfortable with this. Why is it that you don't want clarification on this? It's none of your business! Now we're beginning to get more evidence that maybe there's something here that is amiss and that we need some clarification on, because this is not the representation of Jesus. He doesn't respond this way. His process is not set up with harshness, covering and these different areas. It's light. Hey, if I'm wrong I want to know I'm wrong. Let's go find out. That's safety. That's the spirit, something similar to that that you should be receiving. If you keep getting these others then that would be an opportunity to say I'm really concerned about a situation here and you wouldn't even have to articulate it. You'd have to be very careful and say, would you be able to just sit down and ask my husband how are things going? He says you know what, my wife is a pain in the neck. He begins to tell him all the things that you're doing. It might lend itself then to what the real root of the problem is. It's very important that we never usurp. Don't ever go over somebody's head without going to them and asking for them to represent you to that greater authority. That's the safest route. Any other comments along those lines?

Pastor LaRock: Just about the spirit of the subordinate, that if you did find that it was necessary to appeal to a higher authority, there would never be any delighting. Like, now he's going to hear it and I'm going to be vindicated. There would always be a thing of; you would be hesitant to do it from the standpoint of not wanting to be disrespectful or usurping or anything. But if it was necessary - willing to do it, but your spirit would always be one of support and if you really felt that your position was the Scriptural one, praying that your husband would have a teachable spirit and be very supportive if he did get corrected. That kind of thing. It would never be a thing of well it's about time I'm going to get vindicated here. I'm glad my husband got put in his place.

Pastor Scott: Again we're back to I Corinthians 13: "love doesn't vaunt itself. It doesn't seek it's own way. It doesn't think evil. . ." (paraphrased) and all of these things you would have to make very clear is in your own heart before you went to represent that. Richard, you were going to share.

Pastor Miller: For the husband in a situation like this, this is where the transparency becomes very important, that you were teaching. For the husband, he should be dealing with his wife in the spirit of; I want you to be in submission to me just like I'm in submission to these spiritual leaders. If you question the way that I'm doing things and think that something is not Biblical then yes, let's go. Because, as I expect you to be under my authority, I'm also under authority and let's go and find out from our spiritual leaders what's right and wrong.

Pastor Scott: Yes, you can't be "in" if you're not "under". That's the whole point we were talking about earlier. A husband that would respond the way I was, is one of those people that is an authority to themselves. That's something that would have to be addressed. Does that help a little bit?

Pastor Scott: Yes, in that particular scenario, husband is spending the mortgage money bowling. That's an area as you begin to encourage them in the Lord and say; this is something that is not a Scriptural principal. They say we're going to do it anyway. That's something that has to take---there's a lot of waiting in this for God to work in this individual's life. It's not something that---we've got to be very careful. We say, I've got fix this tomorrow because if we don't we're going to lose this house. So what? Losing the house may need to be what your husband has to experience to stop doing this stupid stuff. But I'm going to protect the family from losing the house. God knows what's going on. He can protect you. These are different areas; again let's make sure that we're not quick to fix this thing from our perspective. Is it wrong to go bowling with the mortgage money? Yes! No question! But anybody that goes bowling with the mortgage money has a bigger problem than that. So the key is arriving at what the real problem is. Make sure--- again, remember what we said earlier about the mistake - as long as I'm comfortable for the moment, this is a good guy. He brought the check home, praise God! Went bowling, dog! Make sure that our judgment on his mistake isn't based upon our momentary comfort. The fact of the matter is we make mistakes. Bozo's making one every day, same thing, you know all this process. Patience, faith, trust, you bring the word of God and then you step back and you trust God. Those are areas that are important that we have to deal with. When would the church first get involved in something like this? Would we go and if it became obvious. We might not respond immediately to something like that. We would respond if you were going bowling and expect this community to pick up your discipleship training responsibilities. If you were going bowling with God's money, the tithe, then something would be said. If we were aware of that. You would probably if the knowledge was there be addressed in those areas by someone that's in authority or a friend that sees this and says you can't do that. The guy says hey man, I'm free. I'm using my liberty. Next month there's going to be a big check come in and I'll be able to pay twelve years in advance on the mortgage. You know the history of this guy. When his ship comes in, he's always at the airport. There's just no fruit that ever materializes. You've got to address those things and say no you can't live off the big deal. You've got to discipline yourself. That's a character issue that has to be dealt with Biblically. So we would address it in those areas. Be very careful before you would expose this, which God is working it out in this particular individual and I'm not going to expose it just because it's putting pressure on my comfort zone. Any questions or comments along those lines? I think that would be important as part of the scenario at hand. Any other questions? We have about ten minutes left so we'll see if there are any other issues along these lines. Interesting stuff isn't it? How many of you realize you are really ugly inside? This is an ugly thing. And that tendency is in every one of us and that's why we have to die daily. That's why we have to wash ourselves with water of the word. And we have to remind ourselves that that tendency for self to rise up and want it's way and it's perception to be seen as truth is in every one of us. We have to deal with it continually and contend with thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought to think. Very important! Very important. Any other questions? Yes.

Pastor Scott: Love covers a multitude of sins-when we talk about that in its context, we're talking about the fact that there is a provision of forgiveness and that it's-when the sin is discovered we're not looking to destroy, we're looking to restore. The issue is going to be dealt with. Justice is going to be administered, but the spirit is one of reconciliation and restoration. The cover up---you know the prophet said you cover but not with the covering of me. You cover up. You're just looking and saying I'll go ahead and not expose this sin and you owe me one, because I'm planning on sinning down the road and, you know, sowing and reaping, we're looking at that. As children of light, we always come to the light. "Love will always bring reproof. It'll bring instruction into righteousness that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly furnished" (2 Tim 3:16&17 paraphrased). But it's never delighting in the fall. It doesn't rejoice in iniquity. It doesn't in anyway condemn the person, because I'm more righteous than they are. It's an attitude of humility. "Restoring one another in a spirit of humility" (Gal 6:1 paraphrased). Those begin to be the differences of covering with truth and restoration and I'm willing to help you back to right relationship. Covering up is, well you know, I won't let anybody else know. We're all sinners anyway, so I'll hide your sin if you'll hide mine. That begins to be what much of the professed church operates in. Let's don't judge one another. Yes, let's judge one another with righteous judgment but let's not condemn one another. Let's see one another restored and healed and cleansed and more righteous that they were last week. That begins to be the distinction in covering with the multitude. Any others?

Pastor Scott: The whole book of Job is summarized in the fact that here was a man that in his generation was perfect. Tragically in his own eyes he became perfect and so God had to humble him. When you're small in your own eyes God can use you. When Job began to then come in to that place where ultimately his heart was revealed, that he was more concerned with his justification than God's, you remember that's how the book ends, then the Lord had to reveal his heart to him to bring about this that we're speaking of, transparency, where it didn't end with Job. It ended with God. That's the thing that Father was doing. Now, did he ever lose that role and that relationship with God? No, no more than Joseph did in the pit or in the prison. But, it was a process of making him now, not just perfect in his generation, but perfect with God. There are those who are perfect in their generation, in other words, compared to you I'm pretty good. We say when we look at other. But how do we compare to Jesus. So that begins to be a real issue.

Pastor Gardner: You know one of the things down at the end of that chapter, showing the thing of authority and Father using Job as well. There were things that he was dealing with in Job, when you get to the end of the book you see, who is it that's having to repent? Now we know that Job did some repenting. But who is it that repented? And who did they come to, to bring their offering to be offered to God? His friends had to bring that to him for him to offer it to God. So there was some things they were learning there as well.

Pastor Scott: Yes, so he was never taken out of that role. The point that Steve's making is really the answer to your question. But there had to be a transparency in him to where Job was a whole lot more transparent at the end of that book to where those guys could see through him to God and therefore they were able to come and seek his ministry. Any other questions?

Pastor Scott: One of the important things is you've got to separate the two. You respond to the areas where they may be amiss as Christians separate from where they may not be functioning in what we would perceive to be an acceptable way in their role of authority. That's something we have to deal with. I can go with him as a fellow Christian and address him one way. And then I have to address him as an authority another way. In the secular realm he is an authority, in the spiritual realm he's a peer, and you can deal with that them accordingly. The Scripture makes it very clear how we deal with brothers that are sinning etc. and how to respond to authority.

Hopefully this helps a little bit, some of the practical things. I think we went over a number of those aspects in our home fellowship groups and the secret power of lawlessness or the spirit of iniquity that Thessalonians talks about that is being like a tidal wave in our nation today and around the world is the force that we're contending with, because it the very spirit that Antichrist is going to come into rule under, effects everyone of our lives on a daily basis. So we need to put on the whole armor of God and to wash ourselves in the word and be prepared on a daily basis that we are truly humbling ourselves and trusting Father as our source, as our protector. And then to assume our roles whatever it might be, as young people in our families, as members of this community, as overseers of homes whatever it might be, that we would not abdicate but assume the responsibility of our role and then be able to hear ultimately, well done good and faithful servant.

Father, we do thank You for Your call on our lives and how You've placed us in the body. Father, we ask that You would strengthen us now in the ministry where You've placed us, each one. For You've put us in the body as it pleases You. Others may question it, but You've placed us as it pleases You. You've gifted us and graced us and we just ask now, Father, that we would represent You properly. Cause us to be bold in our proclamation of Your lordship and the truth of Your word, and yet cause us to be humble in the fact that without You we can do nothing. Help us to represent You by the anointing of the Holy Spirit, by the authority of the word of God, that men would see our good works and glorify You, our Father. For that we say, "Thank You, in Jesus' name, Amen.

Before you go, turn to somebody and say, "Submit." Amen. Go in peace and God's love go with you.

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