Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Panel Discussion

Pastor Scott: If the guys will go ahead and come on up, we're going to take some time and deal with the teaching on "faith" and the few sessions we've had on "guidance" to see what we can do to get them into the practical application. They are such important subjects and there are so many practical applications that we want to speak toward our daily involvement in the process of being put where God wants us in the eternal perspective. One of the things we've been emphasizing, of course, is out of Psalm 25, that spirit of meekness. We've said it in so many different ways as far as through the teaching to this point of not being double-minded; not forgetting what manner of man we are; the deceitfulness and wickedness of our hearts; the having convinced ourselves that everything that we imagine or perceive, our discernment, our perspective, our plans, we equate with the will of God and the voice of God; and all of that's just a lack of biblical meekness in our lives. Trying to come to grips with who we really are. We saw that the wicked heart is desperately wicked, it's incurable. The condition of a man's heart, he can't know. We can't know it, only the Lord can reveal it to us, as we remain looking in that mirror. The moment we depart from the presence of God, the moment we depart from the Word of God, we forget what manner of man we are. We begin to get into that delusional state again and think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think.

So, God in His justice and His mercy, constantly tries us. He tries our hearts to prove what's in us, the Scripture says as the children of Israel were wandering in the wilderness. Where God constantly will put us into circumstances as He did Abraham, to let him see what was really in his heart so that in the end he could be proved a faithful man. The father of our faith, a man, who was fully persuaded that what God had promised He was able to perform. A man who was strong in faith, giving glory to God, Scripture says. That all came through a process of Abraham being humbled. He thought he could do it in his own strength; and we had the Hagar/Ishmael incident. He almost defiled the pure vessel of God, his wife, as he allowed her to be taken into the king's house and God had to intervene in that situation because of his own fearfulness and his own doubt. God allowing us to be tried in those many ways to where we can be proven. Then, once He blesses us and we have the promise of God, it has to be offered back up to Him because He doesn't let us see the end of this thing. If you can understand the beginning to the end, if it's all mapped out, then you did it! Because in the spirit, the natural mind cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, they're foolishness. His ways are not our ways; they're above our ways and so anything that God is doing, you're not going to be able to get a handle on it; you're going to go not knowing where you're going. You're going to go, calling things that are not as though they were; you're going to go in absolute obedience to the promises of God.

So with that as a little bit of an overview, we want to make sure that each of us are hearing the teaching as it's coming forth. I think that as you meditate on the 25th Psalm--the 5th verse says, "Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day." I think that's a key aspect that we'll want to talk about some tonight, that waiting on the Lord. "Waiting" doesn't just mean to pause and see what He does, but it means to wait, to serve Him, to prefer Him, to not make any decisions until God has ordered the steps and the course for us, acknowledging His Lordship, His sovereign purposes. So those are some of the things that I think it's important for us to address. We're going to give a chance for you to ask any questions, but just to kind of stir your minds a little bit, I thought I'd share just a couple of things off the top of my head. Anything that stuck out to you guys that we might address? Then we'll see what some of the responses are.

Pastor Miller: We were talking in the back about--and you just mentioned it about our own perception--we were talking about some of the youth here. You know, really when we talk about the youth--and I know it's in your heart, too--you really wouldn't want the youth to get the wrong idea--because we adults are really the same, we just hide it better. It's easy to pick on the youth because they--it's all out there. Right? They haven't learned how to disguise their pride as well as the adults have. But that deception of having a perception of yourself that's not real is so dangerous. I guess we relate to it so easily as pastors because we've been in counseling sessions where you're sitting there and we've talked about the different size hammers. You're hammering away on this guy's brain trying to get him to see what you're talking about and you try the velvet-covered hammer first and that doesn't work. So, you take the velvet off, and pretty soon you're up to a sledgehammer and this guy just does not see himself! The power of that self-deception, the heart is incurable; it's wicked and you can be lost and damned to hell unless that power of deception is broken.

As Jeff was saying in the back, the power of deception is broken only from being in the presence of the Lord. I know for myself Sunday morning I was here in worship, just worshipping the Lord, and the Lord showed me something about my own heart. I came to a conclusion about something in me that I had never really come to before and it was sinful and it was ugly, but that's really how it comes. It really comes in the light of His presence. Unless you wait on the Lord, as you were just reading there in Psalms 25, and when you wait upon the Lord you have to go there with self-agenda being surrendered. Because if you go there with your own preconceptions and your own self-agenda, you're still in darkness; the light of His presence can't penetrate your heart. But when you're there with an open and a surrendered heart, then He can start to strip away the layers of your heart and show what you really are.

Pastor Scott: Whatever it was that the Lord spoke to you and revealed to you, did it just come out of the blue? Was it sovereignly just something that He chose to speak at that moment--you'd never seen it--or was it the by-product of some of these trials you've been going through and the pressure that's been on your life?

Pastor Miller: No, it was definitely not just out of the blue. They were things that I have been dealing with and struggling with. When you're dealing and struggling with things, you seek the Lord and say, "Lord, what's going on?" It was kind of the summation of progressive illumination. It's like peeling back layers and pretty soon you get to that final layer that's peeled back. I don't even know if I can say "the final layer" of this particular thing was peeled back. But you get to the place where you start seeing it more and more, and you think, "Oh, boy. That's really ugly."

Pastor Scott: It's usually those externals, the things that we would call trials or the consequences of whatever it is; if it's the type of a besetting sin or whatever, but there's always consequences and those become trials and they become pressures and that's how God speaks to us. That's how God guides us. It's not just a word that comes out of heaven. So that's part of what we've been talking about in this "guidance" teaching, that the Lord led them in the wilderness that He could prove them. He took them out there for a purpose, to reveal to them what was in their hearts. That couldn't be revealed until there was adversity, until there was the need of absolute dependence on God. When they didn't have any water, they murmured and it showed what was in Moses' heart as he smote the rock; all the different things that the pressures of life reveal in our hearts. That's guidance! Most of us want guidance by getting down, praying, and God saying, "Go down two blocks, take a left, go right." and it very seldom comes that way. It can, but it's very seldom. Usually it's through all of these trials and pressures that God puts on us that forces us into the submission of a meek spirit to where we can finally hear the voice of God and we come beyond ourselves.

Pastor Miller: Yes, because it's in the trials, and it's in the chastening of the circumstances that your senses are exercised. That's really--we were talking about some of the youth and sometimes young people can be real arrogant and it's because they don't have any life experience. Sometimes, kind of under your breath, you wish someone would take them out back and just beat the snot out of them because they haven't had that.

Pastor Scott: Yeah, you think you're pretty tough until you have to get into a fight. What you imagine yourself to be when you live vicariously through Rambo or whoever is on TV, then all of a sudden Rambo--it sticks out in my mind, that first Rambo in that one scene where he's sewing himself up--that's how you imagine yourself and then somebody gets a splinter and faints. Now we're in reality. Until people have come to that you don't know how you're going to react.

Pastor Miller: But the good news is God loves them enough that they're going to hit the wall somewhere and they're going to find out what they're really made of.

Pastor Scott: Yes that's for sure! What else has stuck out to you guys? Any of the other things as we were discussing some of these areas of guidance and what's been revealed in the heart?

Pastor LaRock: Just the aspect of God's providential--that's an aspect of it that you're talking about right now--just God's providential dealings. In other words, just not really having to pray about the specifics, but trusting that God is ordering our steps. A man's heart devises his way and the Lord directs his steps. To just look at the circumstances that are around you and what is it that Father's doing? Like you said, trials that come our way, they reveal to us things about ourselves maybe that we didn't know or maybe that we knew but we were not dealing with them, but looking for doors to open, doors to close, and not really feeling that compulsion to try to make something happen, but just realizing that His ways are so far above our ways, that He has a plan and trusting in His providence. If things don't work out in our timing, to realize that there's something He's got going on that's going to be better. It may not be something that I like better in the short term, but it's going to be better for His overall will.

Just being at a place where your life is surrendered and that's what I find to be the place that brings the rest. If you can come to that place of surrender, and understanding that He's in control and we really--if we're seeking God, it's hard for us to get off course! If we're really seeking the Lord with all of our hearts, it's hard to get far off course. You can get off a little bit here and there and you get bumped back on as you submit your life to the light and you hang around Godly people and you let your life be seen. I think that's a vital part, making sure that your life is really out there to Godly people. If you're hiding something, then, you're in trouble. You're in deception and you're already off course and you're just going to go farther off course. If you're pursuing the light and pursuing Jesus and surrounding yourself by the light, through Godly relationships and feeding yourself the light through teaching and feeding on the Word of God, then it's hard to get far off course. You've said it often, "If you get how God wants you, then He's going to get you where He wants you." If you're seeking Him, you're going to be at that place of peace and trust in His providential dealings. What doors is He opening, what doors is He closing and then just being at peace with that.

Pastor Scott: One of the things we've been emphasizing along these lines has been--you guys can speak toward this--a man's heart devises the way. We've talked about that and then we deal with that in relation to the steps of a good man being ordered by the Lord. We talked about what the "good man" was; this victorious man. We've been emphasizing the fact of seeking the kingdom or the general revealed will of God first, and not all of these peripheral, temporal things that seem to occupy the majority of our time, as we look for guidance in the will of God. We call it the "providential will of God." Providence is really the fruit of obedience to His general will. Then God providentially brings us into the application of all these other things, whatever it might be; the life's mate, the vocation, the whatever it is that so many times people are looking for that are the natural consequence of seeking first the kingdom. We've been trying to drive that home. What have you seen in your own lives along these lines, or anything that you might comment on from the teaching actually?

Pastor Heglund: I know one of the things that keeps standing out to me, you keep mentioning the word "noise." I've kind of been hearing that in my life, looking to make sure that I exercise noise reduction. I was kind of hearing that in what Chuck was saying, as well. It also stood out in the faith teaching when you were talking about instead of--even we get noisy in our religious pursuits, even for selfish reasons. Our body's sick so we go after something to work our faith up or achieve some faith with a formula or whatever else and you were saying to just be obsessed with hearing God's voice, and not about that. Maybe God wants you to take time and intercede for somebody else; in fact, that would probably be a good thing for you to do at that point in time. Look to reduce that noise in your own life instead of looking to get out of the pressure, just looking to hear God's voice. Instead of maybe even being obsessed to hear God's voice about your specific situation, just taking time to worship and be in His presence. I've heard that both in the guidance and the faith teaching, just really being caught up more with knowing Him.

Then I was trying to think of different times in my own life needing guidance, or I was--since Richard was mentioning high school kids--I can remember when I was in high school. I look back now and it was easier in a way because you have so much care and a lot of it was you guys sitting here. You helped reduce the noise real quickly. I can remember one point where we had some strife going on and I had my own ideas about the way things should work and we had a meeting and I was called into the meeting. I don't know what was going on in everybody else's mind, but noise was--everything was kind of brought to you and God, and that was done because, like Chuck was saying, we were around, you couldn't hide. At the one point it was just the five of us guys for awhile almost and there's a lot of different ways to reduce that noise. Taking care to be in God's presence for ourselves, personally, to take our own time of making sure that we're hearing and setting apart to wait on God and then following His revealed will. There's just a lot of stuff in my brain, I think, going on about that, but that's one of the points that stood out of just simplifying, being temperate. You talked about Paul and his life and not fighting as one that beats the air, but being temperate. You talked about that aspect of noise reduction in our lives, being temperate in everything except for the kingdom and the noise just reduces. When you're obsessed with the kingdom and seeking it first, then like Chuck was saying, it's just God's--He knows what you need, and it's not what you think. It's a lot better--usually a lot better--even in this life, it's a lot better!

Pastor Scott: "The seeking first of the kingdom," we sometimes forget what that is, too; it's not seeking a place in the kingdom, a name in the kingdom, it's not seeking to do something for the kingdom; it's seeking the King. It's that relationship with Him and the availability to Him in the place when you stop and really look at how this thing shakes down in guidance. Do we really want the will of God? Do we really believe it's good for us to have been afflicted? Do we really count it all joy when we fall into different temptations, knowing that this works patience, and when patience is finished--listen to the end of this thing, you want to talk about the perfect formula for guidance--and when patience has had its perfect work, it's completeness in us, then we are entire, wanting nothing. That's pretty good guidance; you're put in a place now where you lack nothing. So what is guidance all about? Guidance is all about being in God's presence and lacking, wanting, nothing. So that's guidance, it's not geographic, it's not informational, and it's relational. Where God is, we gave the illustration of Abraham, Lot got to choose first. He took everything that every natural man would have taken.

As I was sharing what came out of my mouth, I was sharing some of these things in Baltimore and we talked about the fact that here's Lot and he looks down there and he's got the Garden of Eden. Over here you've got tumbleweeds, dust and the jackrabbits carrying canteens and coughing up tumbleweeds and over here's the Garden of Eden. You put that up before any natural man and what are they going to choose? But see, Abraham wasn't there. All Abraham knew was, "I've got to separate from this guy. This guy is the last fragment of my disobedience, because I was supposed to have left everything, so I'm going to let him go."

Most of us, when we talk about guidance, we think that God's going to lead us into prosperity; we don't realize that guidance can be leading somebody else into prosperity; we stay poor, they get prosperous, but God led us away from them. We seem to think that God would lead us to the prosperity and leave them in poverty, because this is us. God may leave you in the poverty and lead them and bless them to separate you, and now all you've got is you're just stuck with God!

It's because of that same thing I was talking about, how we view ourselves; we can't see that being God. "Surely God wouldn't bless somebody else?" But see, it's not over yet, and what is blessing? "Blessing" is the presence of God, so when God spoke in that particular incident, guidance was standing still and letting somebody else choose to go the way of the world. And now God--and the next chapter starts off--because God hadn't been doing a lot of talking to Abraham through that other part--then it says, "And God spoke to Abraham and said." So that's guidance. It's not always about the stuff, it's about the presence. I think that's very important for us.

Pastor LaRock: Another thought was about the need to recognize our own weakness and our own inability when we seek the Lord for guidance. Whether it's to--you know, sometimes we can seek the Lord and we may be diligently pursuing, trying to fix something in our own life, and thinking we're going to help God. "Oh God, I saw this and now what are we going to do about it?" Or maybe we think of ourselves kind of highly as our gifting in the body and, "God, I don't know, what do You have for me? We certainly can't waste all this that You've put into me, we can't do that. God, how do You want to use me?" We can get caught up seeking the will, "God, I should be being used in this area, and I'm just being asked to do these things over here that are mundane and no one knows and I'm really gifted to be doing this. God, how are You going to open the eyes of those that are over me to be able to see this?"

I'm exaggerating a little bit, but that spirit is in us to think that we're the special gift. God doesn't need us at all! We need Him absolutely, for our own sanctification, for anything that is going to be done through us that's good. It's all going to be done by Him. We get all worked up thinking, "How am I going to fix this in my life?" Sanctification, or "God, how are You going to get me where You want me to be so I can affect what You've called me to do?" Like the kingdom just rises and falls on our getting into the right slot. He got along fine without us, and would get along fine if we were not here. We are absolutely, totally, weak and dependent upon Him for our next breath. If we don't approach Him that way, we're going to be off course. We have to approach Him in total weakness saying, "God, I don't even know how to leave this sanctuary! Just tell me what You want me to do; tell me what I can be to serve You." Leave it all up to Him and He'll guide you through His Word and His Spirit.

Pastor Scott: Do you think there's a misunderstanding, we'll let some of you respond to this. Do you think there's a misunderstanding as it pertains to guidance in these things that God always wants us to prosper? I'm getting back to the Abraham thing again. In that we look at it at every juncture, this momentary, this thing; guidance is always going to take us into bigger, better, less opposition, more peace of mind, immediate deliverance from the trial, etc. Is that what we're seeking when we're looking for guidance, and is that the expectation, do you think, of most people when they're seeking God?

Pastor Miller: I think it is because that's our heart. That's what we want. You were talking about how we're so proud that we think our desires and perceptions is the will of God, and it's not. His ways are usually cut 180 degrees opposite of our thought process, but the thought process is "If God is leading me, it will be bigger, better and more prominent," and a lot of times it's not.

Pastor Scott: Now see, there's nothing wrong with the prayer of preference, "If it be possible..." but it has to be subordinated to "Nevertheless, not my will, Your will be done." That one phrase that Jesus spoke is everything I've been trying to drive home with all of these Scriptures, illustrations and parallels. That is meekness; to where you are subordinating to the sovereignty, the wisdom, the eternal purposes of God and not the immediate comforts in our life at this particular area, and that it doesn't end with these circumstances. Chuck, as you talked earlier about the sovereignty of God, if God's for us nobody can be against us, nobody can take our lives, they have to be laid down by Father. He orchestrates all of this. If we're moving in that confidence, we don't get caught up with those cares and that being the thing that takes our time and our energy; it's to know Him better; it's to seek the face of God. With the assumption of all of these other things, we already know that our hearts are desperately wicked. We know the sin that's in our members, we know that the flesh lusts against the spirit and these two are contrary, one to the other so that we could not do the things that we would, and all of this that goes on internally. If we know all of that then we can't, in any way, trust anything that would be coming from the soulical realm. We have to purely allow God to purify, to purge us in those so we can hear that voice of the spirit that gives the eternal perspective. That's kind of what we've been trying to get home. Any other comments?

Pastor LaRock: To respond to your question, too, I think that it is the case with a lot of Christians and it's because our treasures are in the wrong place. That we think, "Well, if I obey God, then He'll bless me." We think the blessing is "stuff," or a promotion, worldly things, material things. Like you just said, the blessing is God's presence. If that's our treasure, God does want us to prosper and He wants us to prosper by having His presence, the ultimate blessing. We may have sickness in our bodies; we may have people at work that hate us; we may have people that say things wrongfully against us; we may get fired unjustly; and we're prospering because we've got God with us. We may have to sell our home and move to something much less than we would prefer, but we're prospering because God is with us. Jesus said when those things happen to you, rejoice. They persecuted the prophets and remember those that took joyfully the spoiling of their goods. And when our treasures are in the right place, then we'll see that we are prospering.

Pastor Scott: That's the point that I've been wanting to get home. Now you're able to hear the voice of God. When you're able, like Abraham, to just say, "Lot, choose what you want." When you're able to--and I thank God for having been able to imbibe the spirit of men as we were talking the other day, like a Kenny Schmidt--that leaves the largest church in the nation to take a small church. I think other than myself, he's the only other guy I know that didn't say, "God's leading me to a bigger church." I don't think that us doing that was by accident. I think it was because we were followers of those who through faith and patience inherited the promises. I think it was because of a great cloud of witnesses and I think this is part of what we've been trying to drive home to the parents. If we want our kids to imbibe this spirit, then we have to have that spirit. How much are we being answered by our idols and where our treasures are? So these are the things that we've been trying to drive home in this particular series.

Pastor Heglund: I definitely believe we think that way, too, as far as just if it's God, He's going to make it easier, or bless us or take the pressure off. But it seems like the pattern, looking back at my life, or just at different times. I was just talking to my dad today, and the pressure that's on his life he was talking about, and it was really a blessing to talk to him, just how through the trial of the sickness and, of course, he can't do the things, some of the things, that he'd probably like to do, and the treatments and everything else. But he said the most amazing thing is how completely focused he is. How actually it's kind of like everything in his life just prioritized real quick. Probably, and he didn't say it like that, he just talked about the prioritizing of God, and family. He was talking about how the pressures, and I remember Janet talking about that, too, Mom, dealing with, and I remember her at different times speaking towards that. How a lot of times when those pressures come on, it just drives us back, it reprioritizes it. It puts our treasures back in the proper order and everything goes right up here to God real quick and all the noise just drops off. Dad was giving glory to the Lord and just the grace and sensing the prayers and how even just in mundane things like work, he's able to really focus. That's really neat. You can think of times in your life where you're there.

Looking back at my own life, most of those times come after the pressure. You just seem to go through pressure, pressure, and you work with God and maybe it's a Gethsemane or maybe it's not quite that bad, but you're working through something and you break through and get things back in focus and you're back with the Lord and things are right. Then, time goes by and, then, a lot of times we have to go back under the pressure; but the pressure is good. Even your example in the past year; you just don't know why is this happening, what's going on, but that example. We're so well taught that I think naturally, that's what comes and we all kind of think that in the back of our mind, "Well, if God was doing what He's supposed to, things would be a lot easier." We know that's not the case, but it sure does seem like it.

Pastor Scott: It seems to be the natural tendency. Any questions on this point, on the teaching, anything that we've spoken here that may have stirred something up in your thinking and you said, "You know, I just had a question, I want this clarified, or how does this really work, practically in a given situation, something that I'm involved in at the moment?" Is there anybody that would like to ask a question on the teaching, or on application of any of the points that we've covered up until now? We'll be happy to see if we can share along those lines. Anybody? As we're just sharing along here, hopefully this will stir and clarify some things for you. Everybody's got it all?

Pastor Miller: A question I've been wanting to ask you. I've watched you up here praying, right there for years, and it's probably been hundreds of times I've looked over and thought, "I wonder what he's praying about right now; wonder what's going through his heart and mind right now." In the past I know you've given the little tip of when things are going through your mind, you write them down so you can get that cleared out. You talked a lot Sunday about you can't approach God with self-agenda. With the noise that Jeff was talking about, is there anything practical; and I know there are no formulas, it's relationship, it's not a formula, but are there any practical tips that you practice in your prayer life to where you can get everything else to quiet? Are there any practical tips of what you do to push self-agenda down so that that voice is not popping up in your heart?

Pastor Scott: Usually I'm praying about things like, "Lord, I'd really like a raise, and I could use a few more cars..." and some of those kinds of things. We know I'm being facetious; that stuff never enters my mind, ever. I can't ever remember praying about that kind of stuff.

As we shared before, I think really what it is, I try in one way or another to practice the format of the Lord's Prayer. The first thing I do, the practical thing of just anything that's in my mind that may be going on from a business perspective or just the busyness of the day to try to write it down, get it out. Something I have to do after prayer, Taco Bell, or whatever it is that's driving the flesh at that moment or bringing about some kind of attraction. You get that down and then once you've done that, the best way to quiet self is by exalting Father. You just begin to worship and realize the bigness and the greatness of God and the goodness of God and the privilege of accessing Him by the blood of Jesus; what a privilege!

I was in prayer this afternoon down in the basement, and my mind went back and I thought--I was doing an outline for the conference we're going to do in Tanzania--and my mind went back to and I could see myself standing by our '55 Chevy. A lot of stuff in my life relates to cars. I could see myself standing by that '55 Chevy and it flashed back because it was at that time that I first heard the gospel when I was walking down the street by that fence. You know, I told you about the stick on that fence, "clickety, clack, clickety, clack, clickety, clack," and got invited into that house and for the first time heard about Jesus. [Pastor Scott turns to his wife and says, "I'll show you that fence on Friday; we're going to be out there."] That fence is still there, I think they painted it since then, but anyway, it was about 1955. [Comment to Mrs. Scott: "That fence is a lot older than you are!"] My mind went back and I thought, "Here's this little eight year old kid, raised in such a pagan environment, that God snatched out of that environment through so many sovereign things and here I am making an outline to go and preach to 6,000 pastors in Tanzania, Africa. What a big God! What an amazing--how did I get here? How did I get from that fence to Tanzania? That's really what we're talking about tonight. It's one step at a time. It's just making decisions to obey and to go against the natural, the flesh. The very thing that He called me out of was a pagan family so I can't live a pagan lifestyle, I've got to separate myself. It's a new kingdom. So as you're worshipping in Him and seeking the kingdom, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done." Who am I? Here's this, the son of a sharecropper, man, bound for hell and God sought me when I wasn't seeking Him. Those are the things that are in my mind during prayer and during the worship. The thanksgiving, I'd like to say it was always to that degree, but it's not. There are times when I'm so tired of the ministry and tired of being drawn in a hundred different ways, and that's when I'm in the flesh.

When you're in the spirit you think, "What a privilege to serve the kingdom of God, and who am I and who is my house that God would choose us?" As David said, to be able to give this back into the kingdom. So that's practically what I do in that period of time. "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come." Then the consciousness always of getting my debts forgiven because of the awareness of the sin that's in our members; how vile we are without the cleansing of the blood. And the ability, then, to realizing my weakness to have pity on those that are struggling around me so that I can be patient and seek to edify them instead of crucify them. In those different areas, is when you're touching the heart of God, freely having received to freely give. That is what gets you away from your own agendas and you can see how Father loves the unlovely and our agenda would be to bless those that bless us. The pagans do that, and to look and see that privilege.

That's a little bit. I don't know if that helps at all but that's kind of what you're looking for. It's not the specifics; I don't really pray about the specifics. I really don't pray, "Lord, do you want us to start this new program? Give me a program that will help our children." The stuff just comes because He's the Shepherd, the chief Shepherd, He's the Shepherd of our souls and what happens, a children's ministry gets started because all of a sudden out of your spirit you say, "Richard, why don't you go up there and teach those kids and let's see what happens." And a lot has happened, and God's borne some great fruit out of that and it wasn't in prayer. Most ministry comes out of necessity. God will speak in a moment if we have hearts that have already--the reason I don't have an agenda is because I've come to realize how stupid I am; I've never come up with anything that worked yet, so I stopped trying. I've stopped trying! I don't sit around trying to think of stuff. I'd get us all in trouble, man; I know what I can do. So I just kind of hang out and wait for Him to say something, and when He says something, I move, and if He doesn't I just hang out.

Pastor Miller: There are a lot of us that have a way too high estimation of our opinion and perception.

Pastor Scott: No, you guys are probably smarter than I am, so I just realized that. It's just a thing where I'm just kind of "being in the way," the Lord's leading. I got here by doing what I knew to do to this point, and it seems to be working. I've had a whole bunch of people try to kill me and they haven't been able to do it, so that works out good. I haven't been sitting around trying to think of ways to escape, I just keep following God and it's amazing how He blesses those that bless you and curses those that curse you and "being in the way;" doing what you know to do! All I know to do is be thankful because I'm a sinner that was sought when I wasn't seeking Him and all I knew to do was be thankful for that, and I'm the debtor. God doesn't owe me anything, I'm the debtor. I'm the unprofitable servant; I should get acclaim, I should get fortune for what? I'm the debtor, man! There's no merit in this. "Well, you're laying your life down, going to Africa." Big whoopee! Unprofitable servants and I think those are the things that set us up for being able to hear the voice of God. Any other comments along those lines?

Pastor Gardner: I was going to say, one of the things you made a comment about several weeks ago, back in May, about one of the things we had to see. I think it's one of the biggest problems with all of us. That is the fact that we have to see ourselves; we have to come to the realization, not just mentally understand it, but in your heart you have to come to the realization that we are pilgrims and strangers on this earth. Our big problem, for a lot of us that think the way that many of the things that have been mentioned here from the pulpit this evening is that we are "saved Americans." Americans are very prosperous, so we should be. And we are very prosperous, but not in the same standards. The kingdom is quite different from America. When you begin to see yourself as whatever I'm doing, that's what this is for. I'm a stranger, so I don't look for the prosperity or whatever that you would look for as an American. It may come and if it does, fine. But if it does, it's for the kingdom, it's not for me to be exalted and raised up as you were just referring in other areas. It's for the kingdom. God's made that very clear that everything about us is for the kingdom. Now, but it's not all sacrifice. I'm a part of the kingdom, so I'm going to benefit from this, from whatever's going on, the kingdom being built. What you're doing that I don't do, I'm benefiting from. What some of these men, some of these books we read from the past, I never met any of those people, but I'm benefiting because I'm a part of the kingdom, not because I'm an American. But I think that we think--you were asking the question there a few minutes ago about how we see ourselves--we see ourselves, I think, more as Americans, saved Americans, than we do as pilgrims, strangers on this earth. We are citizens of the kingdom. You can't even compare those! How are you going to compare America to the kingdom of God? That's not even possible! We compare ourselves, America, to other countries and we're first rate and they're third world. We wouldn't even be third world with all of our prosperity and our wisdom and whatever, to the kingdom of God. I think that's where we get lost, because we try to think, "Ok, God is going--if I'm serving God and being faithful and whatever--God is going to bless me and He's going to bless me the way you would be blessed in America."

Pastor Scott: So we have certain inalienable rights.

Pastor Gardner: Right, exactly!

Pastor Scott: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Pastor Gardner: You just mentioned Abraham, letting Lot choose because he realized he had to do away with where he disobeyed God in that area, and yet he wound up with, it looked like nothing, but he had God. He was a part of the kingdom of God and look what that's done for us; look where we are. We didn't have to go out in the desert where there was nothing.

Pastor Scott: You have to do that, you have to believe that. You were a part of this and you remember when John Heyner and the guys were here and what I told them at that time, and you were a part of those meetings. I told them at that time, I said, "Look, I'll tell you what. You guys take this, take it all. Take the property, take the church, you can take whoever wants to stay here, and I'll go down here to Northern Virginia Community College and start again. Because I know who I am, I know what God's called me to do. I'll leave you guys with this thing if you want. I'll leave you with the mortgage and all of the headaches and I'll go down there and start." I don't have my trust in the natural; I'm not looking to that. I know that God supernaturally put me here and if He's for me, nobody can be against me. "So fine, you guys, rather than fight--I'm not going to fight you guys. You can have it, I'll go down here." God supernaturally began to move and things began to be revealed about individuals and, man, we were in a cloud of dust for a long time. But it's that spirit of just saying, "I don't have to have anything in the natural; all I need is God, and I'm willing to have just that."

Jimmy Swaggart made the statement, although he didn't make the right decision when push came to shove. In fact, he made the opposite decision, which tragically didn't produce what could have been best in his life. But he made a very interesting statement when things were being shaken to a great degree there. He said that the Lord spoke to him and said, "If you'll trust in Me, then as it pertains to the natural, the most you can do is break even; cause you started with nothing." Worst you can do is break even, they can't eat you! We don't believe that. That's where we have to get so that God can speak to us clearly and we can hear that without all of that noise. Because the noise is self-preservation, the noise is self-reputation, the noise is comfort and ease and not the presence of God, that's the difference.

Pastor Gardner: Yeah, because what was he going to lose buildings, land? He wasn't going to lose the thousands of people that got saved through that ministry for all those years, they didn't belong to him anyway, they belonged to God.

Pastor Scott: That's a reward in heaven, man!

Pastor Gardner: Absolutely!

Pastor Scott: You know, you can't lose that; it's gone before you! All he was going to lose is a bunch of headaches: the land, and all that kind of stuff. But the natural man, if it's dominant, won't let us make those kinds of decisions.

Pastor Heglund: I think one of the practical things, talking about that and the freedom of self agenda and Richard's question. I think it was the teaching you did, [Pastor Scott] or one of these guys about "roadblocks" of how can you tell when that self agenda is creeping up, or how do you stay free from that. In your own life just setting up different roadblocks for when you get off of God's course, here are the other courses. I'm pretty familiar with who I am and there are some very generic things that start to happen as you get off track. One of them is you begin to, as it pertains to the ministry, you begin to be frustrated that people are coming to you for ministry when it should be a privilege. But now they're getting in the way of whatever else it is that you wanted to do. So that's a roadblock. Ok, when this starts to happen in my life, somewhere I've gotten off course. Because now it's not a privilege, now ministry and being able to serve and the incredible privilege of "who am I?" begins to be this big, well, it's taking me away from tea time or riding a little motorcycle or...

Pastor Scott: My kingdom, even if it's spiritual things, you're trying to build your own kingdom.

Pastor Heglund: Right, or the roadblock of "Well, when I come to this place and we lift our hands in worship, I'm thinking about lunch or I can't wait until I get to sit down." We know our flesh.

Pastor Scott: That sounds like one of Richard's teachings.

Pastor Heglund: I don't know whose teaching it was, but it was good and it's always stuck with me. This was from a long, long time ago. Or when those besetting sins start to just take over and all of a sudden you realize you're in up, hopefully you catch it before then, but I know every time I'm run down spiritually, this is what starts being the attraction, whatever it might be. You set up those roadblocks in your life to where you can recognize quickly, "Ok, everything's rising back up, and I just blew that roadblock down, here comes the next one, am I going to get back on track?" We know it's only the Lord that shows us those things, and it's only by being in His presence, but there are those things. Or jealousy rises up about something and you start to think, "Where did this come from?" And it's all self, just coming back up. They're different for all of us but they're the same.

Pastor Scott: Anybody think of a question yet? If not, we're going to unhook here in just a second.

Pastor Scott: What stood out to you? I don't have any notes, so...Somebody was reading some of the teaching back to me the other day and I was just blessed, man! I said that's one of the problems with inspirational teaching is that you don't remember anything you said. Sometimes you lack the edification.

Pastor LaRock: He wants us to tell what you said and also the interpretation of it? [Laughter from the audience.]

Pastor Scott: Right. It was "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin" (Daniel 5:25). Is everybody checking your notes, see if anything good got said out of Matthew 6?

Pastor Miller: He said it was a Wednesday. Where's Ken Marino when you need him?

Pastor Scott: As you're looking through your notes and we're trying to give a little thought, the aspect that we've been talking about from seeking the kingdom. We were talking about the fact that seeking the kingdom, is really seeking the King as we referred to a little earlier. Seeking the presence of God and not being led astray by majoring on all these "minors" and being distracted with praying about things that He already promised would be the consequence of our obedience of the eternal pursuit. I think that's probably one of the greatest distractions from us really finding the will of God is praying about "stuff" instead of about character; instead of about obedience; instead of about Christ-likeness; instead of letting the mind of Christ be in us who came to do not His will, but the will of He that sent Him and speak His words, but the words of Father. Those are the things that really become distractions to us.

Pastor LaRock: I found one comment that was--I'm not sure that he even referenced Matthew 6:33, but he might have, it's definitely that spirit. I'm not sure if this is what you were thinking of but, where he said, "Not to get caught up praying about circumstances that seem to oppose the Word, such as lack of natural provision, but to pray that we would be faithful to the general revelation."

Pastor Scott: That's good! [Laughter from the audience.] That's what we were making reference to, again, we get so distracted in praying about all of that stuff.

Pastor Miller: I do have something about that. Seek ye first the kingdom. Maybe this will help with what Chuck was sharing. You said, "What do we pray about?" You were talking about the fact that a lot of times we're praying about things that we shouldn't even pray about. You said, "What do we seek God for? God will primarily speak to us about our relationship to Him. Seek first the kingdom and all of these things shall be added." That fits right in with seeking the kingdom is seeking the King. But you also said, "Are we seeking God, or are we trying to use God when we pray?"

Pastor Scott: Chuck, what was that, again, that you had in your notes?

Pastor LaRock: "Don't get caught up praying about circumstances that seem to oppose the Word. Rather, ask Him to keep you faithful to the general revelation."

Pastor Scott: Talking there about circumstances seem to oppose the Word like, "Lord, why am I sick? Lord, why is this not being added to me? Lord, why don't I have a life's mate yet?" When these are things that He said, "It's not good for man to be alone; sufficient to the day is the evil thereof; take no thought for these things." So why are we thinking about them? Spend your time, as we said earlier, praying about that general revelation, the whole duty of man: love God, keep His commandments. That's what our focus is on and then all of these other things that take so much time--in His sovereignty--and isn't that what we want? God's ways are above our ways. In His sovereignty He gives you the life's mate; He gives you what's sufficient for you and not so much that it destroys you. "Don't let me have so much that I forget you." We'd all like enough to forget God. We would! We'd all like so much stuff that we'd forget God. We think we can handle it. "If I had that much stuff, I'd be free, I wouldn't have to work anymore and I'd be free to serve in the ministry, and I'd be ready to distribute." You won't be any more ready than you are right now, because it's not numbers, it's character, its obedience, its relationship. If you can't be that way with five figures, you're not going to be that way with six or seven figures. These are the things where man is deluded, where man is deceived. It doesn't get easier to write the checks with more zeros, it gets harder. Those are the things we have to realize because there's power in that. Harder not just in the fact--because it's all still a percentage thing that's not what makes it harder. What makes it harder is with those extra zeros comes more pride, more power, and it feeds the natural man, and independence rather than dependence, and it's destructive. So it's only the blessings of the Lord that make rich and add no sorrow. God giving according to our character, our pursuit, and according to faith and not the man that's willing to be rich and it's bringing about many foolish and hurtful lusts and leaving men in destruction, perdition. In guidance, don't seek to be rich. So we pray, "Lord, don't make me so rich that I forget You and don't make me so poor I steal." That's contentment. Hopefully that's what you were looking for. If not, pray; maybe the Lord will reveal it to you. Yeah, listen to the tape!

Pastor Scott: If I'm hearing what you're saying properly, I think the key is that principle we've taught of "being in the way." The servant of Abraham was sent. The master, Abraham, gave him certain things to do. He knew this: that his son was not going to marry a pagan; it had to be of the household of faith. So he gave him that mandate and said, "You will not let my son marry a pagan woman; it's going to be out of the household of faith." That's the general requisite. So from there the servant went out, and we know the story as to how, at that time he then prayed and said, "Lord, let me be faithful. God answers my servant. He's been faithful to You, he wants to stay a man of integrity, purity, separation and holiness, bless him according to his pursuit. Bless him according to his desire to honor You, etc."

The Scripture says, "And being in the way" God led him to this woman. In the process he says, "Lord, for my clarification, if this is the one, let her say, 'Let me draw for you and for the camels'" and her character then begins to be revealed. Here's a diligent woman, someone who's not seeking reputation, etc., then she had to later on at a juncture, of her own volition. It wasn't just something that her father said, "Go ahead and go off and get married." The whole thing, then, was that she has to agree to this thing, and so now God had her heart in His hand and turned it which way He wanted. She agreed to go. All of those circumstances, then, were guidance. He wasn't praying about every specific issue, but he was praying about responding to the character to this man of God. That's general revelation that was being pursued.

So I said all that to say this: Here I am a young person, do I go to school? If I go to school, what am I going to do? What should I major in? Ok? "Lord, speak." Ok. It can be anything; ok, it's going to be microbiology or underwater basket weaving. What's God saying to me? I'm going to major in Latin. (That's probably not God.) Very unlikely God's going to tell you to major in something useless. So what am I doing here? I've got to begin to use "a man's heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his paths." So I look and I say, "What can I do that's going to most enhance the kingdom of God? What can I do that I enjoy doing?" We can't assume that God wants us to be miserable! So what can I do that I really enjoy and what's going to enhance the kingdom? Now most of us seem to think, "Now what can I do to make the most money? Speak, Lord!" We look and we say, "What can I do that I enjoy?" What is being happy worth? So what can I do that I enjoy and what can I do that will honor God? "Speak, Lord." He doesn't speak. Well, a man's heart devises his way.

The one thing I know is regardless--now, forgive me, I haven't been in college for a while; so I'll just speak from certain general education requirements. Are there still general Ed requirements? Ok, I've got to have some English; I'll just go back to when I was in school, I had to have general ed. Some English, had to have psych, had to have some of this kind of stuff back when I was a kid anyway; you had to have psychology and you had to have some of the different political-science courses and other things. You put all this together. Until God's spoken I still have to have my general education requirements, so why not get those? Most kids want to go, take their major and then they change their major, and then they change their major and then they change their major, and that makes you a minor. So get the general ed. That's a man's heart devising his way.

Somewhere in that next process as you're maturing and growing and serving in the kingdom and being faithful to the community, there might be a desire to pursue a certain area, a certain course and now I've got all the general Ed out of the way and I can begin to major in some particular course.

That's one scenario. The next scenario is, "I don't even know if I'm supposed to be in school." Well, the one thing you're not supposed to be doing is laying on the beach; staying home watching TV. If a man doesn't work he shouldn't eat. So you're either in school or you're working, you're producing something. There's nobody that's static, lazy, freeloaders in the Body of Christ. Working hard somewhere else may motivate you to go to school. Now the Lord's leading you, and your flesh before was telling you, "I'm just going to seek God." You're not seeking God, you're laying watching TV. So come to grips with who you are. That's another scenario. Can anyone throw another scenario out?

Pastor Heglund: The door didn't necessarily shut because you failed a class because you were lazy. Or the door didn't shut on your job because your boss got after you and told you to show up to work on time. I've heard different people...

Pastor Scott: That's not a closed door?

Pastor Heglund: Yeah, even here, "Well, the door's closing. I mean, my boss is mean; I'm not doing well in school." Just because it got difficult doesn't mean that that's a closed door. We tend to think, it goes back to what we were talking about before, if it's not easy and I'm prospering and everything's great. But I've found that God, even with school and temporal things, God tends to lead you into more pressure. He grows you up so you can face the next bigger pressure. That's one of the common pitfalls that I've seen.

Pastor Scott: Really, most likely, God doesn't care what you're doing. God doesn't care if you're an engineer as in build a building, or engineer like toot-toot! Whichever. He doesn't care. We're all gifted, called. We're all placed differently as it pleases Him. What God cares about are: Fearing Him, and keeping His commandments. Represent Him in whatever arena we are with fervency, integrity. Raise up Godly children; love your wife; submit to your husband. See, we're back to the general will and none of this other stuff matters. We're wanting, "Oh, does God want me to be a toot-toot or World Trade building builder guy?" That's not what He's caught up with. So I think, hopefully, this will help you understand that those are the things that are not important. The general will of God is what's important. To go into all the world and preach the gospel. To take these things and write them on the door posts of our house. To teach our children when we rise up and when we walk in the way and when we lie down. All of these things that become the real issues of seeking the kingdom; and all that other stuff will be added. All of a sudden--I was trying to think of--every blessing that I've ever gotten in the natural realm was being about Father's business somewhere and He brings somebody into your life out of nowhere that says, "Well hey, did you ever think about this?" And you go, "Well that's interesting!" Next thing you know, "I just happen to have this, and I know this guy," and a door's open and next thing you know there it is. You find yourself "in the way," sharing the gospel down that road. The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord. That's how I see it in the Scriptures and that's how guidance really works. It's not, "You will be this."

Jeff chose to go to school and get his degree in engineering. Why? Because a man's heart devises his way; that was something that was obtainable; it was something he was going to do. Did God tell him to do that? God didn't tell him to do that, because that wasn't God's will for his life. God's will for his life is what he's doing now. That was something he did while God was opening other doors for him, door of utterance. So you do what you know to do, and what's available at the particular juncture.

We're out of time. Was there anybody that just had to ask a question and its pressing? We'll take that. We don't want anybody to miss your opportunity even though you waited way too long to ask. Anybody?

So in those areas, it's not a lack of faith to devise a way. It's not a lack of faith for preachers to have a vocation; Paul was a tentmaker. The different aspects of secular, vocational abilities; Peter was a fisherman. We look and we see that God can reach into whatever the secular arena is and He pulls out those people that He wants to separate into full time ministry. Then, those that are not, He blesses in the ministry they're in. Rich widows, people that were industrious, helped support the ministry of Jesus when He was on the earth. So there's going to be the principle of occupying in the vocational realm that we're in until the Lord comes. We're to be busy about that that God's given us. The one thing we know from the revelation of God is you've got to work. If you're going to work it would be nice to do something you enjoy. I always put that as number one, not how much money you can make. You can make a lot of money and be miserable. You can be a whole lot happier enjoying the work you're doing than getting paid twice as much and hating what you're doing and being miserable. Then you die, leave it behind and leave them miserable. Be careful with what you're investing.

Any other closing comments you guys might have? If you get how God wants you, He can get you where He wants you.

Father, we thank You for Your Word. We just ask that You would continue to purify our hearts and to protect us from the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and the lusts of other things; all of that that dominates our flesh, that we would truly be seekers of Your kingdom first! And we would embrace the cup and say, "Thy kingdom come, not my will, Thy will be done in earth as the spiritual kingdom. In earth, in earthen vessels, as purely as it is in the spiritual, eternal kingdom." It's our heart's desire Father.

We don't pray about a life's mate, because You said it's not good for man to be alone. Receiving that wife obtains favor of the Lord. He that finds a wife finds a good thing. You want that for us. If we would seek the integrity of the separate life, You would lead the messenger to bring that woman to us; Your choice, not ours.

Help us, Father, to tear up the list and throw it away and receive what You have for us. We think we know better, we think of ourselves way too highly; not my will, Thy will be done.

Help us, Father, to see that it's not the vocation, it's the ministry on the job. It's the souls that can be touched with whatever You've gifted us to be. Who am I? What am I capable of doing? What do I enjoy doing? What do I have talent for? Let me use it for the kingdom of God! Let me see what You've made me and let me use it for the kingdom of God. It's our heart's desire, Father.

"Where should I be? What do You have for my life, Lord?" We don't need to pray about that. You be followers of those who through faith and patience are inheriting the promises. Find the great cloud of witnesses and imbibe the spirit of those. The general revelation, the practical. Don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some, even more as you see the day approaching; the general revelation.

"Father should I take this job? It'll give me a little more money; I can invest it over here." Give! It'll be given to you good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over. Don't rob God. The devourer will come and you can't make enough if you're stealing from God. Be ready to communicate in your prosperity. The general revelations, then all of the others are added. Make it real, Father, we'll give You the glory. In Jesus' name. Amen. Before you go, say, "The steps of the good man are ordered." Praise God! Go in peace, God's love go with you.

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