Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Pastor Panel Discussion

PASTOR SCOTT: As the guys are coming, we're going to take tonight and kind of finish up the sessions we've been on. I'll be out of town for a couple of weeks. We're heading out to Tahoe and roughing it out there for a little bit, so I thought we would wind up some of the subject matter we've been on.

I understand we had some great home groups; some of the testimonies on how the love of God has been practically affecting each of our lives. That's exciting! Then as we finished up a little bit on Sunday evening we were talking about forgiveness. I don't know that we've ever had a panel on forgiveness, so we would like to ask you to forgive us for that, and take a little bit of time and really deal with such a practical subject. If we don't forgive, we can't be forgiven. I think one of the things that was very important, as we were sharing with you out of Matthew 18, as we were talking about the injustice of that one who had been forgiven such a great debt and then went to make demand upon his brother that he pay him all.

We talked a little bit about the amazing ability of God to forget our sins. How many of you are glad your sins are forgotten? Amen? I mean, take just a moment and think about that. In God's mind it never happened. That's pretty good, isn't it? There's no record of it. The Scripture says, "The handwriting of ordinances against us has been blotted out" (Colossians 2:14). That's good news, praise God! But any time that we want to bring something back against another brother or sister, magically, it appears again. You put it right back on your account. Is unforgiveness against that one individual worth bringing up a lifetime of accusation against yourself? That's really what it boils down to. Whenever we're going to demand justice, demand our rights, demand--"That person mistreated me and they're going to pay." No, you're going to pay. We've been so freely forgiven, so totally forgiven. The Greek aphiemi, to be sent away, to be put aside, dismissed. What a phenomenal ability that our Father has to give us that bold access into His presence by the blood of Jesus.

Just as if we'd never sinned, we said, is the simple way to look at that word justified--just as if I'd never sinned--justified. So when we look at this principal, all of us are faced with people that are going to trespass against us. I mean, people are going to sin against us, cut us off on the road, all of these different things. People are going to take advantage of you, say all manner of evil against you. Hopefully, it's for righteousness' sake. How do we respond? In the subject that we were looking at, I really believe that the only way we can ever truly understand it and be capable of forgiving is to believe the love that Father has had and be able to receive His forgiveness and believe that forgiveness toward ourselves. That enables us to forgive those that are around us.

One of the greatest necessities to being able to forgive a brother or sister is the capacity to forgive yourself. That is that ability to accept the love of God and to really believe the effectualness of the blood of Jesus. If you can get it and believe it for yourself, then you can apply it to others. Until that happens, it's very difficult to really believe that it's capable of working in a life.

Those are some of the things that are very practical, very important for us. There are many different examples in the Scriptures of course, of forgiveness one toward another. You look at different principles. Before we look at some of those, and maybe some practical questions that you have, though, I'm going to let the guys respond on the teaching and something that stood out to them. I know we've talked a little bit about it, but the power of this topic is really the most liberating thing that any of us will ever be able to find as we're walking with one another. Richard, were you going to share?

PASTOR MILLER: What stood out to me quite a bit was that statement of what a privilege it is for us to forgive. I don't know if I've ever heard it, in all the years that you've been teaching here, expressed just that way. When you think about forgiveness, if I'm not willing to forgive someone, then I really don't understand what I've been forgiven of, and I don't understand the personal love that Father has for me.

So many times we're blind and we think, "Well, I've never done what that person did to me." No, but your sin is just as great and just as damning in the sight of God. So you can't say, "Well that person is worse than me, or that sin is worse than any sin I've ever committed." Guilty of one, guilty of all. We know the depravity. We know the indictment against us as sons of Adam. When you really realize what we've been forgiven of your heart just melts, and there is really no way that you can just hold something against another brother or sister. I mean, just the aspect of it being a privilege. Our forgiveness is such a delight, such a joy. Jesus spoke of the angels that rejoice in heaven when a sinner repents.

You see in the story of the prodigal son how the father ran to his son to hug him, and how Father rejoices over us when we repent. To be able to express that forgiveness to someone else is really just the expression of Father's heart. It's a delighting to show, and to shower upon someone else what God has so graciously given to us; it's really just a rejoicing in your own salvation. And then the forgiveness you received of Father, it's just such a joy to be able to express this to someone else and to share with them what you've been given by Father. It really is such a privilege in that way.

PASTOR SCOTT: I think that, as you were sharing on the teaching of the prodigal, the father is not only willing, but his desire--he was looking for the return of that son. He was expecting it. That's part of what we were sharing the other evening--the privilege, and looking for the opportunity to share that. Now, of course, we can apply that teaching in so many areas, and we try to draw on the love of our heavenly Father, but when we look at that parable in light of what it is also--this is talking about a real family, this is talking about real people who had been trespassed against. A young man who went out and squandered all of the blessings that God and his earthly father had given him. Because in the parable it says, "I have sinned against heaven and against you." We like to put the type in it of the divine, and the heavenly Father. And we're learning from that principal, but I think that is one of the things--as we talk about forgiveness we're not only talking about forgiving others, but we're talking, in this subject, we're going to have to talk about going to ask forgiveness also when we've trespassed.

I think one of the important things is to understand that all of our sin is against God. That has to be the real awareness. That's what breaks our hearts, that's what grieves us when we realize that we've sinned against Father and against His grace, and His mercy, and then whoever, of course, the innocent party was.

PASTOR MILLER: I was just going to add a quick side note. I've heard through the years, and I'm sure you have too, people that say, "Well, I will forgive you, or I will forgive this person, because I have to, God tells me to."

That 's not the heart of forgiveness. That's not the sharing and rejoicing in the privilege of forgiveness. When you have that true heart, Father's heart of forgiveness, you're looking to forgive. Like you said of the prodigal's father, you're looking to run and embrace that person.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, to speak that way is to really negate, in Matthew 6:14, "But if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." That's not an, "I have to." "If you forgive men, your Father forgives you." Bring them on, man! Because this assures my forgiveness, this shows that the love of God is working in me. This shows that I am a regenerated person, justified, and that sin no longer is governing my life. So that's one of the things that we're to delight in.

PASTOR HEGLUND: Along the same lines, for me, one of the comments you made dealing with the parable of the man forgiven the millions and then the $15 debt or whatever it was, $20. You were just saying how a lot of times we think we're the one who has the $20 debt, and just like Richard and you were saying, I think for me, it just really helps when I can realize (and then Father always helps me out), just that I'm the one with the millions. Whenever I'm in a situation where I feel wronged, or I feel like somebody is just not getting it or whatever, if I can step back and remember that, or like Paul, "I'm the chief of sinners." When I don't have that attitude I find that the Lord reminds me somehow through some act of the flesh, something that He just shows me again who I am and humbles me and allows me to get my life put back into perspective, and then working through my own forgiving myself of that. You know, just the pride of when you're a works individual. We all battle with that in our flesh to one degree or another, but just thinking, "Well I shouldn't have sinned, I shouldn't--I mean, this is me and I don't believe I did that." The Lord just reminds you of the millions and when you've been forgiven, like you were saying, if we can just allow that forgiveness to work in our life it really is--I can't say it's always easy, but it's there. I don't want to say you have to, like Richard said, where you're under compulsion, but you just melt because you see that person and it does offend you at that moment. Your flesh might get stirred up, but when you just sit back and go, "You know what? I'm worse than that, that's me."

It's funny how a lot of times the people close to you, or the people in your circle, are the ones that can bring that out, in your own family or whatever it is. We can take them for granted and it is difficult sometimes to work through those. I guess for me a practical thing, that's interesting--as I watch myself there are many times where when I'm dealing with the kids or other people in the Body I can be so patient, and forgiving, and loving, and I'll talk forever. My wife will be by my side and we'll be counseling, and then we'll go home and she'll do something small, "I didn't deserve it," or whatever it might be. Or somebody else in the family that's close, and I just wonder, "Why do I have trouble in this scenario where it's far less with somebody close, and I can be so forgiving, and loving, and patient with these people." It just comes down to, again, that selfishness of, "Well I'm the Pastor in this situation. That's my job, so I can lay down my life and I'm the big shot." Then when it's a family member it's more like, "Okay, am I really the million dollar debtor here or am I going to go to war?" Some of those principals I was thinking of through the teaching.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. A lot of this is, "Well, these people, they're used to seeing me this way and I'm moving this way. My family knows I'm a jerk," so I don't have anything to lose here.

PASTOR HEGLUND: I don't have to act.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, and they love me anyway.

PASTOR HEGLUND: They love the real me.

PASTOR SCOTT: And really, a lot of it is that familiarity. It's not something that, of course, the negative expression we don't want, but if it can be put into the positive, the knowledge of the acceptance and the ability to be in the light and vulnerable is a good part if you can stay in that when they reprove you for your actions, but that's why it happens so often for us when we're familiar with people. The people that know you best, too, you're around them a lot, they know where all your buttons are, and they can push them in the dark. And so those are things too that we're just all living together and growing together, so that's part of it. Chuck?

PASTOR LAROCK: Back to the forgiveness. "I have to. I'll forgive you because I have to." What kind of forgiveness is that when you feel that way and you say that?

I mean, it's one thing to feel that way because we do things sometimes and we don't really have the heart that we should have, but we do them because we know it's what's pleasing to Father, but you don't tell that to the person. You don't say, "I really hate you but God says I have to love you so I choose to love you. I'm forcing myself to. I just want you to know that." What kind of love is that? You don't love that person. You're deceived if you think you do. Just because you said the words and you force yourself to go through an action, that's not the kind of love that God's looking for. And the same thing when you, "I forgive you because I have to." We don't always have the heart and the affections that we should have in actions that we're doing, but we don't boast about that, we don't declare that. You may feel in your heart, "I'm having a hard time forgiving this person, but I'm choosing to forgive them. I'm going to tell them I forgive them and I'm going to ask Father to change my heart so that it's more in my heart to be loving and forgiving because I'm struggling with it. But I want to be pleasing to Him, I want to have that heart of forgiveness." But when you say, "I forgive you because I have to," you didn't get there yet. You still got a way to go. You didn't forgive yet.

PASTOR SCOTT: Really, the motive so many times when that's done is, again, a seditious spirit. It's a spirit of hatred, because you're knowingly inflicting pain in that type of a thing, because now the assumption is that person who is asking me for forgiveness doesn't really mean it, and so I'm going to strike back at their hypocrisy. I'm going to re-inflict pain. They don't, in any way--love and forgiveness assumes and embraces the fact that person is in pain. They don't like to sin, they don't delight in it. You know, love doesn't think evil, it doesn't rejoice in iniquity. So when I'm responding in forgiveness, if I respond in that kind of an attitude, I don't--I'm not acknowledging that person is hurting. That sin hurt them also. This is not what they want to do or they wouldn't have asked forgiveness. They wouldn't have sought God. They wouldn't have experienced any conviction. So that kind of a statement is a rejection of their repentance. It's also a rejection and denial of the ability of the Blood to really affect justification in that person's life, and the remission of sin in that person's life. "I'm refusing to believe that really affected here." That's part of what is behind a statement like that. It's a powerful, ugly spirit.

PASTOR MILLER: This time around you brought out a little bit different emphasis on the aspect of forgetting, when you forgive and forget. I remember years ago you were teaching on forgiveness and you brought out an aspect of forgetting that I really liked. The aspect was when God forgives us and forgets, He no longer relates to us in light of that sin. And just going along with what Chuck was sharing there. If Jeff offends me and I forgive him because he repents, the next time I see him I'm not going to be grumbling under my breath, "Oh, I remember what he did to me." It's "I'm no longer relating to him. That thing is forgotten." Now, yes, in our consciousness we could still bring it up, but I refuse to relate to him with that sin in between us anymore. I don't see him in light of what he did because I have chosen to not only forgive but to forget so that it no longer interferes in our relationship.

PASTOR HEGLUND: That one I know is a big challenge for a small community like ours at times. I can bring up some examples, like I've heard high school students before getting after each other and it gets almost silly to where--and it's not all the time, but they're like, "Oh yeah? Well I remember in second grade when you stole my happy tickets." Everybody is so familiar from birth, some of us, that we can remember when so and so put the bug down our shirt, and so much goes on.

PASTOR SCOTT: Women are especially good.

PASTOR HEGLUND: At remembering?

PASTOR SCOTT: I'm serious. And that's what part of the problem is, because we generalize so much and they can tell you what shirt you had on when it happened, and what time of day... Because of that, really, for women sometimes it's more of a difficult thing to deal with the forgetting because there is so much to remember. Guys are like, "yeah, yeah."

PASTOR HEGLUND: And that was over.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. For guys, when things are over it's kind of over. A couple of guys get in an argument and you can get over it. I mean, it goes on, but it's a little tougher, and so I think we're wired differently. So for the ladies to not get under condemnation either, if the memory is there you don't have to let it affect the relationship; the response is kind of what Richard is saying. We can't, do that.

So when we say that God forgets we know that the memory part is there, but by faith we have to accept the power of the blood and the law of forgiveness by faith. Calling things that are not as though they were doesn't deny that maybe there is still something there, but I don't accept that and faith is more powerful than my recollection, than my emotions, and that's what we're walking in because forgiveness is an act of faith. And it's an expression of love.

But the powerful statement--I think this--Chuck, don't lose where you were on this thing. In Genesis 45 when Joseph speaks to his brothers--I think this is where we really want to be when we speak to someone about forgiveness, "Now therefore, be not grieved nor angry with yourselves." When somebody has sinned against you and you look at them and say, "Man, don't be mad at yourself for this thing. God's ordering everything and I'm just thankful that your heart is smitten and that you're wanting to get things right with me. Now don't beat yourself up over this thing." That's the right attitude. "For God sent me before you to preserve you. It was not you that sent me here but God" (Genesis 45:5). He is realizing the ability to forgive also is a recognition that God is in charge. "These people did not usurp God's authority and get to me. For some reason God has allowed this in my life. I don't know, whatever it's going to work for down the road." Is God really so big that every event in our life He's sovereign over? Yes, and that allows me to be able to forgive because you didn't take advantage of me, God has for one reason or another, far beyond my.--See, when we can't forgive it's because, "Somebody got me, man. That guy got me, he took advantage." When we realize God's in charge we can forgive. I think that's the spirit behind it. So it's vitally important. Chuck, go ahead.

PASTOR LAROCK: One other thought was, Jeff mentioned about how often times the things that people hold onto and they don't forgive are just trivial things. They may have brought pain to you, but they're trivial in the sense that the person didn't think, "I'm just going to devise a means to destroy this person. I'm going to start out with stealing their happy tickets and it's going to go on from there." I don't even know what a happy ticket is, but--is it one of those things you get like at Chuck E. Cheese or something? Or did you just make that up?

PASTOR HEGLUND: No, I think my mom sort of did.

PASTOR LAROCK: Oh, okay. I know what a happy ticket is. All right. Right, it's kind of like permission.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, the copyright.

PASTOR LAROCK: In basketball. It's a good thing to have if you're in elementary. But the point is, so much of what we experience that hurts us, the person didn't set out with a plan to bring us down. We get sinned against 99.9% of the time because that person was in the flesh and you were near them. It wasn't directed at you, you were in the neighborhood. They stole your lunch because it was the closest one that they could grab. They called you a name because they were ticked off and you were the one that was within earshot. We hold it against them like they wanted to destroy us. If you could just see it as not directed at you--so much is not directed at you for your personal destruction, it wasn't an act of hatred, they just despise you in their hearts, they're in the flesh. People get in the flesh just like you do at times. You get mad, you get angry, you get jealous, and you get whatever, and the person that is nearby gets victimized by your flesh. If you could just separate yourself and see that this person isn't out to get me, they just got in the flesh and I was the one that was near them. It's not about me. They need to be forgiven. So many things are that way, I think just the vast majority of things are that way.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, I think a big part of our daily relationships are that way. I know one of the things that is slightly different is personal versus, again, positional. As a representative, many times, of righteousness, people are going to get ticked off. When you're standing against their sin, against their carnality. Those are the things we rejoice in, when people persecute us and say all manner of evil against us. We're primarily talking now about the things that we do that are offenses against people. They're two different categories in the way that we respond to them. So we don't want to confuse the two either as we're talking.

The people that, for instance, would say all manner of evil against you because of your righteousness sake, they still need to come and ask forgiveness, but many times we're talking primarily now about the fact that we have trespassed against someone or someone against us and how we relate in that way.

PASTOR GARDNER: I see two things in the forgiveness. I know I've experienced it myself a great deal. But you were just referring to Joseph and his brothers there when they came to him and he recognized the hand of God, and God used them in their wickedness. He didn't make them wicked, but He used them, and Joseph forgave them. I don't feel like he just forgave them because that was what God wanted him to do. He forgave them--he was a perfect example of them. He wanted them to be free, not just recognize, "This is the hand of God." You were doing what you did, God didn't cause you to do it but He used what you did. But he wanted them to be free as well, and that's one of the things I find in forgiveness.

Whenever I've sinned and I go to Father and repent, and receive the forgiveness, I know the freedom that brings. That immediately begins to bring a freedom from the bondage of whatever that thing is; it's the starting place. And I know that it's that same way in whomever. If someone has trespassed against me and they come back to me to ask forgiveness, it's not a matter of "well, you forgive because that's what God wants you to do." You're doing it out of a right heart, but part of the thing is, "I want you to be free like I am," because if you won't forgive you won't be free. It just starts there.

PASTOR SCOTT: That's an important part. We talked about the living with an expectation of the privilege of forgiving and I think that is seen in Jesus and also in Stephen. "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." They knew what they were doing, but most don't know the power that they are under of sin, as Chuck was talking about, this sin that dominates our members. People are being used by sin's power, they're being used by the enemy; they're being used by their own inner man being overcome by the sin that is in their members, all of these things. And it goes along with what Chuck was saying, a lot of what people are doing they really didn't set out to do. "Why did you do that?" "I don't know, I don't know." That's something that we need to realize too. If we can have that forgiveness by understanding the common power that we're all dealing with and warring against, it can keep you in a spirit where Stephen was, "Father, you're in charge. These people are moving under sin's power, I don't hold this personally to their account." And that's the thing that we need to realize. I hold it against the account of the fallen race. Sin has to be dealt with, it's not tolerable, it has to be resisted, and we're all fighting that same power. It can create a compassion sometimes. Have you been trespassed against and thought, "Man, I feel sorry for them. Lord, forgive them; help them get out of this mess." Because you understand it, you've dealt with it at times yourself, and that is what we need to be moving in.

Are there any questions or comments along these lines that stood out to any of you? It's a big subject; one that we're all involved in. I think, probably, one of the common things that--you know, the Scripture says, "When you stand praying, forgive. If you have ought against any..." If people have transgressed and you're having that problem you need to make sure that your heart is ready to pray. And if your brother offends you, go to him. If he hears you, you win him, praise God. That's important.

So these are the things that keep our relationship and our communication with Father flowing in the proper way. Any questions or comments along these lines so far? Yes.

PASTOR SCOTT: I would normally, at that time, just begin to pray for that person. I wouldn't necessarily reprove them at that moment, because it would be perceived by them as justification. That's one thing. When we are the guilty party we need to accept the responsibility for that, and the fact that they are sinning right now, we contributed to that. So it's a thing of just going, "Well, I'm going to pray for them and I'm not going to tell them what is wrong with them at this moment. God will deal with them just like He dealt with me." And these are some areas that would normally be a good way. Now, what do we do if it's prolonged and it goes on? Then we see them in a bondage like this and we might want to go to them and say, "Well, we have got this relationship and I'm really concerned with--we dealt with my problem, now we need to talk about yours."

I think there would be a time for that. I think just timing, knowing what the Spirit is leading you to do at that time, I think, would be wisdom. Do you guys want to comment along those lines? Is there anything that you would see? Would you respond with an immediate, "Well, that's not the right attitude," or whatever? A lot of it would be based on relationship that you have with them, how much bondage they are in, in their lives. Is this something that is a besetting sin, habitual in their life, that you see them responding this way all of the time? I think there are a lot of things that would contribute to that.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. Yes, if this is something where this person, this is an area in their life that's really a stronghold, then you might just need to address it at that particular juncture. If, as a rule, these things--I know the person and I think, "You know, their tendency is they are going to be a little hot here, they're going to vent but they take care of this kind of stuff and I'll be hearing from them in three or four days," then you can let the thing work. So I think relationship has something to do with it.

PASTOR LAROCK: You could listen, too, if you have a close relationship with the person, to hear if an attitude or a spirit of forgiveness is being worked in their heart. If you can see that they are changing, and they are verbalizing in home fellowship, for example, that God is dealing with them about such and such a thing, about being more forgiving, and not begrudging forgiving. In other words, if you hear that they're progressing and growing in that area you can--it would be safe to hope, at least. You have good reason to hope that they're progressing in that area in the sin against you as well.

In other words, if a person sinned against you and it seemed like they were having a hard time forgiving, but you can hear that they are just overflowing in the upcoming weeks with just zeal and excitement about what God is showing them about forgiveness, and how they are getting set free, you wouldn't have to go back and call them on the carpet for the incident that you had with them two months ago. "I'm just really concerned about your response." It's pretty evident that God is doing a work in their life, so those are things that you would look at took just as you are looking at their life.

And what you shared too, Pastor, I thought was just really a good point about just having a humble attitude towards the person and realizing if you sinned against them, "Hey, I've contributed to this. I'm not necessarily the one to be the heavy in their life at this point. I need to pray for them because I've been a part of that some." That's a very humble attitude to have. To really, as Paul said to, bear one another's burdens.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, because all of this is, again, the impetus of all of this is love. Love does not rejoice in iniquity, it believes all things, it hopes all things. I'm sitting there and this guy is responding and he says, "Well I'm going to forgive you because I have to." My first thing is going to be, okay, what I'm going to believe by that statement is he's saying that and maybe he hasn't verbalized it exactly right, maybe he's meaning, by faith I'm really believing God to forgive you. We're not all real great communicators, so if I'm moving in the love of God and I've asked forgiveness, I'm the guilty party, I've transgressed. I've put pressure on that person to respond to me in the flesh, and I'm coming back and I'm saying, "I'm the man." Even if they don't respond exactly right, now the Holy Spirit has to deal with them. And then they'll come to me later and say; "The way I responded to you wasn't right, man." "Well, I'll forgive you because I have to." And then two weeks later you get to go back and say, "You know, I didn't respond to you right," and the guy goes. "Well, okay, I'll forgive you because I have to." And then eventually you guys will work that out, and finally everybody will get it solved and you will do it right.

I was sharing with Pastor Jim yesterday in a counseling that he's doing in his church with a husband and wife. He was asking, "Why is this person responding with so much anger and different things?" We have to be careful, especially when we're trying to restore a relationship, the ego, and the pride. We want to win. We want to win. We want to be right. We want this thing settled my way. I want to know that when this is over they finally did realize I was right. Until you can deal with the real issues in your life, and in every conflict we're usually both participants if it's a relational thing, not just an I stole your lunch. "Well, I was participating by bringing lunch." Those are things that we just always have to have that spirit to realize too as soon as there is conflict somebody is going to want to win this thing. Sometimes by winning you lose, and you're better to lose your life and gain it. That's the spirit that we're looking for.

PASTOR HEGLUND: I know through this teaching that is something I can look back in my life in dealing with people. Just seeing it go from wanting to help them to their not hearing me and so then it becomes that war of the wills. You mentioned it in the men's breakfast even, just how it really takes faith to go, "You know what? All I can do is say what I can say." If you're really going in love, you don't care if you come out on top you're just trusting that, "Okay, I went to them." One of the things I've been able to look at in my own life is, if I'm delighting in going to be the agent of justice or something in my own mind, or if I feel that flesh that rises up because I know I'm right and they're just not seeing it and I have to get that point across. Then it just becomes a whole mess of flesh where you just messed the whole thing up and now, like you said, you get to be the one to go back; and it just becomes a sin attitude.

PASTOR SCOTT: And many times it's the older brother scenario. We're really ticked off at these people because, "I'm working hard, and I'm doing it right, and they're sloughing, and bless God they need to get their act together." And we're going like this and then we stop and we go, really--and we're going to go reprove somebody because they're sinning. "You're sinning against me because you didn't show up on time for Young Adults and I was there and ready." I'm not talking about you as the leader, I'm just talking about say, a captain, or even another participant; "You're always sinning against us by being slothful, so I'm going to..."

Just in these areas, yes, that is sin in their life and it needs to be dealt with, but on the forgiveness thing right now, it's very important to make sure that we're going to respond with the love of the Father, not the older brother, as someone is being restored back to the family. I think that is vital.

PASTOR MILLER: Kind of tying in with what you and Chuck were sharing a few moments ago, wouldn't there be times when there's the heat of emotion in the middle of a confrontation and you know it's best just to kind of walk away for now and come back maybe a day later? The act of repentance on the one who's transgressed and the act of forgiving on the one who's been transgressed, both have their origins in God. This is a work of God that's going to restore my relationship with you, so if I go, and that person is just really distraught or really angry, we don't have to feel compelled to say, "This thing has got to be fixed right now so I can mark it off my to--do list today."

PASTOR SCOTT: Yup, that's selfishness.

PASTOR MILLER: It's not going to work or operate in your timetable. And it's not to say that we lower the standard, but give it some time. Like Chuck was sharing, give it some time to observe some fruit and give God some time to work in that heart. If they're listening to the voice of God they'll be tracking you down in a day or two.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. And what you're saying, these are the practical things that will help all of us so much. When I come to Richard and apologize to him and he's still kind of heated because I transgressed against him, it can't be, "Look man! I apologize. This thing has got to be settled because I don't want this on my mind, and you're not responding exactly the way you should and now I'm trying to hold..." Next thing you know we're going to be in another conflict here rather than me just assuming. If it's love that has motivated me to want to unite back with Father, to unite back with my brother, and, therefore, if love is the dominant force in my life it's not going to behave itself unseemly, it's not going to think evil, it's not going to demand it's own way. And I can just sit there and go, "You know, I absolutely understand why he's ticked off." Then I walk away and I'm saying, "Father, help him. He doesn't delight in that, that's not who he is, that's not what he wants to do. I know why he's responding that way, because I sinned against him. And I'm just asking you to help him through this thing and bring him to peace, Father, and heal him, and I don't have anything else to say about that." That's the spirit that we have to flow in. It makes it work. Are there any other questions or comments? Yes.

PASTOR SCOTT: Amen. That's a good point. The bearing all things is to put up with, but it's also to shore up, to hold up and to lift one another's hands. When we realize that we're all in the same boat we're warring this sin that is in our members, we're battling against a force that without the Spirit of God is irresistible. It's the dominant force that each of us is contending with. So I'm feeling bad for that person that has transgressed because they don't want to do that. If we can come to where we really believe that, it's so liberating for us and it gives us that compassion that Jesus had where we can say, "They don't know what they do, forgive them, they don't know what they're doing." That spirit is liberating for us and it also provides access so that we can have a relationship now and that is very important for us. Are there any other questions or observations? Yes. We'll go there and then up here.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, this is basically what I was sharing with you that I shared with my mother not too long ago. I said, "You're right, you can't be saved if you don't forgive, and my question to you is this: have you ever done anything to anybody where you require forgiveness? Is it a thing--are you saying to me that this is the unpardonable sin or are you saying that you value yourself higher than God because this one sin against you cannot be forgiven but all the sins against God can?"

PASTOR SCOTT: Sure. Yes, the fact that she doesn't have to "forgive" that person before she can experience regeneration, but she cannot experience genuine regeneration and not forgive that person. That's what I was saying, that you can't be saved without forgiving. It's not that it will keep you from being regenerated. I think if you can show that the comment that I just made, though, about--you say, "This cannot be forgiven. I will not forgive this sin." You're placing the value upon yourself and the fact that you were transgressed against, and hurt, and whatever as the highest offense in the universe. That's pretty prideful, that's something and it will kill you; but a lot of people will go to Hell for that and it's a tragic thing. Do you guys have any comments on that? Yes.

Yes, it's, "I can't forgive them. How dare they..." We look at different offenses, I stand sometimes amazed at the testimony of Corrie Ten Boom when she came face to face with that guard that abused her and tormented her in prison. You just stand there and you go, "The grace of God." You just stand amazed at it, because in the natural, where she is, yes, natural man has that kind of hatred and that kind of perverted justice and judgment; but once you've touched the love of God and experienced that and realize your vileness, that every one of us is as vile as any of those guards that tormented and tortured, and raped, and abused the people in those concentration camps. You're as wicked as they are, no matter how socially acceptable your sin is, and when you can come to understand that then you can forgive. That's the thing because they're all offenses against Father.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. Again, forgiving, you can't forgive somebody that hasn't repented. And so, if I'm understanding that type of forgiveness, if you mean somebody has just--they haven't sinned against me but they've offended me. I can roll off an offense without ever dealing with that person. That's offended me; I'm putting that thing aside. Sin has to be repented of, so I think we need to make a distinction between true sin and offenses.

PASTOR SCOTT: No. Because offenses many times are on disputable matters, social...

PASTOR HEGLUND: Colossians 3:13, quarreling.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, the quarrel type thing. Some of those we can dismiss when we really realize that the transgression, sin, has to be identified. So maybe you can in your scenario help me a little bit with that. Are we talking about offenses or are we talking about sin?

PASTOR SCOTT: Well, somebody comes in, belches, they smell bad, and they're rude. I'm trying to think. A lie like--"I'm the king of the world." And you go, "No, I don't think so."

PASTOR SCOTT: Gossip? Yes, now those are sins. So if somebody is speaking a statement that is slanderous of another individual, or talebearing, or judgmental, "Did you see the way so-and-so is dressed? They're just..." and whatever. "The dude must be queer or something." That has to be spoken toward. You go, "Hey, just because the guy has pink silk pants and whatever, and a little fluffy boa thing on." But you see, what happens, the guy may just have been coming from a costume party, and so we have to be very careful if we're going to pass judgment and make statements like that and somebody--those things would have to be addressed. So something that blatant, and I'm trying to--maybe you guys can help me out. I'm trying to get a--I would just say this, for general offenses, people are doing something that's socially questionable, it's against my conscience. Well, the fact that it's against your conscience doesn't make it against their conscience so that is not a sin. We have to be very careful when we're going to speak toward those particular things and call them sin. Pardon?

PASTOR HEGLUND: Burning out, peeling out in the driveway. Lay down rubber and...

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, we've had a couple of people mention things like that. Some of the young kids have spun their tires on a number of occasions and they go, "You know, that's..."

PASTOR SCOTT: That's not a sin, that's--if they do it out on the public roads it's...

PASTOR HEGLUND: A moving violation.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, it's a violation. They broke the civil law but it's not a sin, necessarily, in and of itself. Those are things--you just have to be careful in what we label as sins and transgressions. We need to make sure that they're justifiable. All unrighteousness is sin. Sin is transgression of the law. "He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin."

What does it mean to trespass against my brother, to sin against my brother? It's to slander them; it's to murder them; it's to violate them physically, whatever. If I come over and punch you in the nose I've sinned against you. These begin to be literal transgressions. Those are actions. We can sin against them and there are things that if they are not perceivable on the other person--this is another thing where we have to be careful. If I covet Richard's watch I don't need to go up and tell him, "Brother forgive me, I've been coveting your watch." That's between me and God. If I steal his watch, now he and I have a relation thing here that has to be taken care of. And I need to pay restitution, I need to give him his watch back or at least get him another watch because I sold it to somebody else. So that's how we deal with different sins.

Sins that are internal, I deal with God within myself. If it's something that has affected him, that he now is aware of, that has involved him, I need to repent to him and deal with him. If it's something that I've sinned against a group, it's not enough to go to one person in the group and say, "I've sinned." I need to get the group together and say, "Look you guys, I sinned. I lied to you guys about the fact that I did have twelve other pieces of pizza. I told you I only ate one, but it was twelve and the rest of you didn't get any. I told you guys that the box came and there was only one piece of pizza in it, I don't know how that happened," and I lied. And I need to tell everybody that. I sinned against the group so I need to confess to the group. You usually repent and confess to the degree of the offense. And that's something that's important.

You're up there and it's just you and Jeff playing basketball and you get mad and you sin against him and say something ugly and then you ask him to forgive you. You don't have to come down before the whole body here and say, "I just said this to Pastor Jeff and I want to ask you all to forgive me." You didn't sin against us, you sinned against Jeff. You took care of that. So that's how this thing practically works itself out.

PASTOR MILLER: Just a little bit of an example that may help. What I was hearing in her question was in group type settings--and you can correct me if I'm not representing this accurately. If we're taking a trip out to the country and we're going in a 15-passenger van and I'm driving, and Steve is sitting all the way in the back, and I look up in the rear view mirror and periodically I see him take this sip out of a brown paper bag and I'm thinking--and he's complaining--hypothetical, this never happened. He's complaining of a cough. Now I think...

PASTOR HEGLUND: It's about the bag, who did he get the bag from?

PASTOR LAROCK: It's his personal bag.

PASTOR SCOTT: We're touching a cord here, this is getting pretty testy. Go ahead.

PASTOR MILLER: One thing I was hearing in the question, who among us is going to say, "Steve, what's in the bag?"

PASTOR MILLER: Do I assume, "Well Jeff's sitting back there, Jeff will take care of it." So I'm absolved from all responsibility. How does something like that play out in a group setting when someone does something? There are six of us standing here, now who's going to address this thing?

PASTOR SCOTT: I think that would just be something that if we observe something then we need to speak toward it. It's part of our responsibility to bear one another's sins and to bear up and forbear, and all of these different areas. That's part of our job, to get involved in one another's lives. The key to all of this, though, as you're looking at groups, is to make sure that you're talking about a transgression and that it 's not your conscience, it's not a disputable matter, these are not... And those are things that so many times we say, "Well they're sinning." No, it's not, necessarily.

PASTOR HEGLUND: And that it's fact and not perception...

PASTOR SCOTT: That's right.

PASTOR HEGLUND: Because he might have lemonade in the bag or whatever it is. That's another thing that happens. People are sure they see so and so was flirting, and their elbows were touching, and I saw their pinkies link up, and ...

PASTOR SCOTT: And most of the time we have to be very, very careful, because the fact of the matter is, most of the time we're judging out of our own hearts, and what you're accusing folks of is usually what you would do if you had the opportunity. Yes. Are we getting close? Okay. Good. Are there any others? Yes, we'll go here and then here. Anybody else? I saw another hand somewhere. Okay. Go ahead.

PASTOR SCOTT: What I mean by forgive is the area of absolving them. We can, from our perspective, not be bitter, not be hateful or whatever, but when we forgive someone--when someone comes and I ask Richard to forgive me and he says, "I forgive you," there is a spiritual force that actually, because of the work of Jesus, absolves that, it's gone. If I never come and ask him to forgive me, Richard can't just say, "Okay Lord, take that off his account." God can't do it. It can't be forgiven until it's repented of. So that's the only thing I'm saying. It doesn't mean that we're still holding it necessarily to their account, but God is.

PASTOR SCOTT: We reap what we sow, and the key is if you ever see your enemy fall in those situations, the thing is not to think, "Well, praise God, they got what they deserved." It's just, "Lord help them. Lord, this is sad. Let them see what's happening in their lives and what's killing them and set them free from this thing." And when I say we can't forgive, what I mean is not that we're not--the Bible says pray for your enemies, pray for those that hate you, that despitefully use you, all of these different things. So we always need to realize that though I am praying, interceding, I'm still realizing that sin has not been dismissed because they have not asked it to be. There's another false doctrine that seems to think that you have to go make everything right with every person that you ever transgressed in your life. That's not what we're saying either. We're saying if you're aware, they're aware, and they're accessible you need to do something about it. "I sinned against this guy; I don't know what ever happened to him." You don't have to be searching the Internet and trying to--it's a thing that if they're still offended and it's that much you'll know about it. And so those are some things that I think are practical. Where was the other hand? Yes. There was somebody over here I think. Go ahead.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, Paul was speaking there of an offense that was known to the community, and that he was speaking institutionally as the authority, the overseer and saying, "I'm absent and I have confidence in your judgment, and if you see this as true repentance then I will recognize it and there can be the restoration in relationship and functional order back into the community." So that's a lot of what Paul was addressing in that particular comment. We'll take a couple more. I didn't realize it was already that time. Did I miss somebody over here, was there another hand? We have over here Ken, and then anybody else. We'll take one quick one across and see if there is anybody else that has a question from a practical perspective. Doing good? Okay, Ken.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. Yes, and that is that true representation of the heart of God, and kind of what we talked about, that living a life of forgiveness. I choose just to pour, to seek to the best of my ability to be that conduit of God's love. If we can live that way it's going to make the way we respond, whether it's coolness of someone, as Ken was saying, or a true transgression, it's going to make it much easier for us to effect the love of God because the greatest is love. Love never fails, and that's what we really want to represent. That has to be the motivation when we're bringing instruction and reproof. I've really not blatantly sinned against a whole bunch of people that I'm aware of, but a lot of people really hate me and I've had opportunity for people's hatred who later come and say, "Forgive me for this, we've said this and done this," and it was an offense. It's easier to give in those areas where it was righteousness. It's harder, a lot of times, when it's justifiable to go ask forgiveness when you're the transgressor, and to go ask for forgiveness. To be free is something that should be again, a liberating thing. It should not be a thing of, "I have to go ask forgiveness," I get to go. God has forgiven me and I'm going to go and try to make things right. I want to restore and I want to be restored. Those begin to be the motive. Love is always the motive from both ends the offender and the offended. So when that can happen I think we can see true biblical forgiveness. Are there any last

Let's pray. Father, we do thank You for Your Word. We thank You for the love that has been so freely given. Help us to freely give. When we stand praying, let us forgive. Father, there is nothing that has been done against us that we're going to hold in our hearts against any man who has come to make things right. Seven times seventy. I am so willing because You have been so willing. Father, we just thank You. We believe in the power of the blood of Jesus to make men new, to make men free. When men are broken and men repent we believe that they mean it. We believe they're free; we believe they're not guilty. We believe they're loved of You and we believe You can love them through us. And Father, we accept that in Jesus' name as a reality in our lives, and we give You the praise for it and thanks. Be glorified in our lives, we ask, Father, in Jesus' name. Amen. Praise God. Before you go, turn to somebody and say, "Love never fails." Amen.

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