Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Spring Pastors Conference

Hallelujah, amen! Well, we got to have a good time together, some fellowship and--probably more fellowship than anything. We did go over some doctrinal issues. We'll be sharing a couple of those things with you all tonight, but mainly just a good time of coming together, and fellowshipping, letting our lives continually be knit together. In the process of all of that [resulted] what true fellowship always produces: a common vision. Fellowship isn't just hanging out. It's not just going and playing miniature golf, or going to a movie, or whatever it is. Fellowship is for the purpose of koinonia, coming together in commonness, building relationships, strengthening relationships to carry out the task that God's called us to do. That's what fellowship produces. We got to do a lot of that. In the process, a couple of different topics came up that have really been on my heart. Because of the age we're in, we've been addressing [topics] that I think are important to discuss. We're going to let the guys share some. We had a lot of good input on some of these areas. But, to guard our hearts in this hour that we're in, in our nation the presence of the spirit of antichrist, which is really the exaltation of "selfness;" to exalt self is to be antichrist. To be a friend of the world is to be the enemy of God. We realize there are these conflicts and contrasts.

In the midst of that, we were talking about the socialistic pressures that are on us all the time. Socialism, not only being through the social aspects of having a commonness of possessions, but we talked about it laughingly, how nobody's to be made to feel inferior in our society. We're all equal. We all have certain rights to be "common," no one's to excel. The body of Christ isn't that way. God has placed an order. God has placed areas of authority in our midst. We are living in a day when people don't like authority. We're living in a day when people are not comfortable subordinating, whether it's in our militaries, whether it's in our families, whatever it is. Children don't believe that parents--not only parents, adults--should have any more of a say than they do. They feel their input is just as valid as an adult's. We have a whole generation that has no regard for authorities, whether it's in the schools, whether it's police. It's breaking down around us and we are influenced by it every day. Wives do not believe--women do not believe their husbands have any right to tell them what to do. This is in our society. It's so prevalent. We in here are taught differently. But, in reality, in our flesh we are no different though we are taught differently.

So we are under this spiritual pressure to live different than the world's system. We are put in a position where to rank under is weakness in the world's estimation. We just did a teaching on humility where we said to find our place and be content in our position of finally identifying our worthlessness; our only worth in our obedience and relationship to Jesus is what causes us to excel in the Kingdom of God. It's foreign to men. The danger of thinking just because we come into this room and sit in here a few times a week that we are not going to be vexed and influenced by this spirit that's out there. So, how do we identify the leaven of the world, the leaven of humanism, the leaven of the spirit of antichrist in our midst? It's by seeing self-exaltation. It's by seeing independence. Those of us that teach these things are criticized as wanting to control. "People don't have rights. They are being lorded over." Let's turn to Peter and see what Peter has to say concerning that estimation and what it is that true spiritual leadership is responsible to do.

We went over this verse. I was sharing with the men this morning as we were expounding a little bit out of 1 Peter, Chapter 5. It's interesting. This is a pastor or an elder talking to elders. What he's encouraging these people in is very interesting. He's encouraging them in humility. He's encouraging them in casting their cares upon God. Not trying to build their own reputation, not trying to be lords, not trying to build a kingdom to themselves. He's encouraging them that there's a devil out there looking for leaders that he can destroy through self-exaltation, through pride, through ambition. He said, "You need to resist these steadfast in the faith." We're in Chapter 5. I'm just kind of giving you an overview of verses 2 through 10. So, he says to these, specifically in verse 2, "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof." We realize this is the role of leadership. I was encouraging the men, "Take the oversight!" Many leaders today are almost apologizing for taking authority, setting a course. "This is how it's going to be. This is the direction we're going. This is what God has said, and here is what we're going to do." It's foreign to the ears of the masses today. Very frankly, even those of us who are here all the time, it doesn't set well with your flesh. But, most of us are strong enough in our spirit that we can bring the flesh under and fulfill the wisdom of God and the purpose of God. But, he says, "Take the oversight of these folks and don't do it by constraint or by force." How do you do it? How do you take the oversight if you don't do it by force? He told you in the very first words of that verse, "Feed the flock." It's by teaching the Word of God. "Here's what the standard is. That's what we're going to do. That's the way I'm going. Anybody that's going with us is going that direction." That's how you set the course: it's with the Word of God.

So, he goes on and says, "You're not lords [verse 3] over God's heritage, but in fact you are [what?] ensamples." That word means a pattern. We all know what a pattern is. Jesus is the prototype, we are in production. We are setting a pattern. We're setting an example. We're saying, "Follow me as I follow Christ. Here's the Word of God. Here's the course set. I'm going that way; be a follower of me." Follow those who through faith and patience are inheriting the promises of God. Then it says, "When the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive your crown through obedience." He talks about the younger elders submitting themselves to the older elders, being clothed with humility. You know what that tells me? That there's something more important than knowledge, and that's experience. Most of us get puffed up with our knowledge. Some of us will even become smarter than our parents. Now, most of you adolescents right now think your parents are stupid, but the older you get, the smarter they'll become. As that happens, you're going to find out that you may even go on to college and have a better education than your Dad. You might have a higher IQ than your Dad. You might have a higher paying job than your Dad. But, you'll never have as much experience as your Dad, so you should always be ready to receive that wisdom. The fact of the matter is, he's been doing it 20 years longer than you, and he's still on course, so you've got something you can learn from him. It's that pride of man that seems to think, "Because I have more intellect, I have more possessions, I have more knowledge, I am equal." The fact is the younger is never equal to the older because you can't make that up. I'm talking about not just longevity. I'm talking about fruit of faithfulness, of diligent pursuit of God, of ranking under and humbling yourself and being faithful in the task that God put you in. That's the context of what Peter's speaking here in this particular area. That's a very important thing. That's the spirit we want to address tonight.

I don't want to go on preaching. I want to give you guys a chance to talk. That will be an introduction into the general overview. I'm saying all that to say this: We have different fellowships here geographically, we have some in Africa, but we're one church, we have one vision. Jim isn't up in Baltimore fulfilling the "Jim vision." Forbe's not up in Maine with the "Forbe vision." There's one vision. They are trying to recreate what God has called us to do in these other areas. That's the unity of the Spirit, that's the harmony we're looking for. We need to be very careful. In a nutshell, I want you to see that these are the issues we're going to address. We're going to address the issue that we have one vision. There's a course. Carnality and humanism will accuse us of saying we think that we have the corner on the market. We think that we are the only ones with the truth. That's not true. What we're saying, is we know what God's called us to do. We know the course we're on and all of our energy and resources are being used to pursue that course.

In the midst of this conversation tonight we're going to address some of the things that can cause schism and weakness among us instead of strength. I don't want you to misunderstand what we're saying. Outside teachings--I listen to outside teachings. I listen to David Jeremiah. I think he's a great teacher. I listen to Adrian Rogers. I think he's a great teacher. There are a few others that I listen to that are a blessing to me. The books that I read: I read Andrew Murray. I read A. W. Tozer. Those two are probably, and Bridges, are probably the three authors I read the most. Now, everything I read from Andrew Murray, and A. W. Tozer, and Bridges and these guys comes in. I assimilate and use them to follow the course we're on, not their course. I use their revelation, their fruit, their faithfulness, their character to strengthen me to pursue this vision. What we're talking about tonight, then, is recognizing the vision that we're all a part of, and the need to commonly follow that and not be fragmented by all of the other voices that are out there. That's where our strength is.

In the world and in the natural there was the tower of Babel. Man, in his independence and his arrogance, came together and God had to confound them because nothing was impossible because of their commonness. God, in His genius, created that same thing called the Body of Christ, called koinonia, commonness. If we're common in our pursuit nothing can be impossible to us. We just need to make sure it's the truth and what God has called us to do. So, we're going to talk about that and the temptations to get distracted as a fellowship many times. We've just run into that some in our fellowship recently. Somebody hears somebody propagating this doctrine, and it happens to meet a momentary need in their life, and so they want to share it with everybody. The next thing you know, "I've got an old Uncle Willy that's dying. I went to visit him in the rest home and I prayed with him and I won a 180-year-old man to the Lord right before he went. We've got to pluck these lives as brands from the fire. We need to get more into the rest homes; we've got to spend more time and resources. We shouldn't be sending all that money to Africa, it needs to go to old men." The fact of the matter is we are reaching out to rest homes, but we are looking for a godly seed. The emphasis of this ministry is children, youth, and another generation; families, that's the vision. For you to come in here and try to set another course, you're out of order. Even though that blessed you, even though reaching old people isn't wrong, even though the guy preaching it has a doctrine that isn't false, it doesn't fit as the emphasis of what we're doing.

So, what is our role, then, as individual members of the Body of Christ being expressed in this local community? There are not a bunch of "bodies of Christ" around the world. There is one Body and a bunch of local communities that are expressing the headship of Jesus. Within all of those expressions are different visions. There's one here. The Holy Spirit either has or has not put you here. If He placed you here, are we producing and receiving through mutual edification what God has called us to? I've got a concern. I was sharing with the men and we'll express it tonight. In the midst of this community that's being built, many of us are creating commitments and allegiances to other members and not the community, the vision, the course of the headship through the gift that's been placed here. That's a danger to us. We're going to talk about that aspect and the carnality of it: "I'm of Paul, I'm of Apollo, I'm of Cephas," that can be very destructive to us if we're not careful. So, we'll get into more specifics, but that's a general introduction. How many of you think we can cover this thing in about the next 40 minutes? Go ahead, anybody? Richard, I know you had a couple of things you wanted to share. Then we'll let the other guys speak what stood out to them the most as we've gone over the topic.

PASTOR MILLER: You were talking about being distracted by other teachings--today you know the technology... Back in Bible days they didn't have radio, and television, and the Internet to access all these different teachings and ministries. There was the local church and that's where you were planted. That's where you grew, and that's where you were fed. But, now we have so much access and as you were saying, it's very easy to become distracted when you hear something. We all have pet subjects and doctrines that we like to listen to. We find a teacher that's teaching on those things. You think, "Wow, this is really great!" Sometimes, what happens is that other guy teaching on the radio is actually a better teacher than your pastor. Not to say that everything he's saying is correct. But, you get somebody like Charles Stanley or someone like that who really knows how to communicate well and that kind of gets you turned on. So, there are a lot of things out there that can distract you. You may have a momentary need, like you were saying; this person really spoke to that need. But, in Hebrews, Chapter 13, I think you really see the biblical pattern where he says, Chapter 13, verse 7, "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God." So, you see if you ask the question, "Okay, who do I follow? Who is my spiritual leader? Who is my spiritual father?" The first requirement is that they speak the Word of God, they speak sound doctrine. Then he says, "...whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." So, this is the principle of knowing those that are over you in the Lord. Knowing, not in an intimate sense that you spend every Saturday at their house, that's not what he's saying. What he's speaking here is when you watch this person's life and fruit, and like you were saying, experience is so important. We follow those who through faith and patience are inheriting the promises. "Consider the end of their lifestyle," is what that is really saying there. If I follow this person, will they lead me to heaven? Are they not just speaking sound doctrine, are they living sound doctrine? Do they live a godly life? If I follow them, will they help me to become more godly? So, consider the end of their conversation. Well, that takes relationship. That takes time. That takes years of building community. Then, I think he sums it up in verse 9 when he says, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines." He's saying, "Don't get all caught up and distracted with other teachings, other teachers." If you hear something that edifies you, great! Use it, learn from it, but realize where the course is really being set for your life. It's being set by those who are over you in the Lord, and you're following the end of their conversation. You see the fruit and the experience of their life and that's what you're following. And then verse 17, it's good, too, to throw in what you were talking about earlier, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls." I just like the way Hebrews speaks of it there.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. What do you think? Who chooses who is over us? Do we choose, or does the Holy Spirit place us? Do I choose this week to be here in Sterling and next week I'm going to go to McLean Bible? The following week I feel the Lord is leading me to Christian Fellowship. Then, I'm going to go up to whatever the different place, CJ's place up there in Maryland. What determines that? How is it that somebody is over us and how did we get here? I think that's the thing we need to address that's also very important. Most of us would say God led us here. So, then we have to answer the question, "If that's the case, how does that fit into those that have rule over us if on a whim we can say, "God led me," and I'm gone? How do those two things work in light of spiritual authority, in light of the Ephesians passage of God's gifts being placed in the church? That's something we might want to address. I don't want to set the course here. I want to give you guys the chance to speak of some of these things that are on your heart. Chuck, go ahead.

PASTOR CHUCK LAROCK: When Richard was talking about how good Charles Stanley was that reminded me. There's one brother in here, oftentimes after I teach, he'll come up and tell me how much he enjoyed Charles Stanley's message that morning. But, I don't take it personally anymore. I was going to read a passage from Philippians. It's very similar, from the spirit of it, to what Richard just shared there, but there's another point I'll bring out as well. It says in Philippians, Chapter 3, verse 16, "However, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us" (NASB). You can see Paul's pastoral concern here. He wants them to follow his pattern. Not because he's egotistical, but because he knows he's on course. He knows God's call, God's placement. He knows the pursuit that he has. He doesn't know what everyone else is teaching, but he knows what he's teaching, and he knows what he's living. He says, "If you follow my pattern you're going to be on course." So, he says, "Join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us." Then, he says in verse 18, "For many walk, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction"(NASB). Because of his pastoral care here, he doesn't want the end of his sheep to be destruction. The fact is, while there are many good teachers out there, and many men of God out there that are doing a great job, they are called of God and ordained of God. There's probably--I wouldn't want to put a ratio on it: ten to one, fifteen to one, twenty to one that are not called of God. They are not ordained of God, they are charlatans. Their god is their belly, and they are enemies of the cross. They are enemies of the selfless life; they are enemies of the life of love. They are enemies of taking up your cross and following after Jesus. So, the Apostle Paul says, "If you follow my pattern, you'll be in good shape, because I know whom I have believed. I know my course. I don't know all these other guys." The fact is there are many good teachers out there. You named some. So, as you said, that's a key point. To use the edification that you gleaned from teachers that you're blessed by, that you know to be solid, sound in doctrine, sound in life, and then use that to edify the community where God has placed you.

What you were saying just a moment ago about, "How did we get here?" If I can segue into that for just a second, sometimes people say they are just that flippant, "Well, if God tells me to go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else." Someone might say, "That's good that they're willing to be obedient," but that shows a real lack of understanding of the way God knits people in a body. I can't just say, "Well, if God tells me to go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else." Like God's all caught up with me and my family and He's not caught up with you and the way my life is intertwined with yours and everyone up here on this platform? That God's just going to tell me, "Chuck, I want you to move to Winchester, or Front Royal, or North Carolina." I'm knit in with a body. He could do that, but the point I'm making is that some regard it just in a flippant manner like it's just them and Jesus. They neglect the fact that they've been knit into a body. I believe that God placed me here to knit my life in with yours and with everyone here. I think it would be a very sober--something I would approach with great sobriety--to consider going to another body, because He's knit me here. He's called me here. Because He cares for us and calls us to care for one another, we can't just flippantly detach ourselves from the body. We're knit with others. Others look to us, and they count on us. Life flows to them from us and flows from them to us. So it's a critical consideration.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. I think what it is, it's a misunderstanding. What do we put the most value on, the universal body of Christ or the local body of Christ? People can say in a flippant way, "Well, the universal body is more important. If God just calls me to North Carolina, I'm going down there, because the church is down there. The body of Christ is down there. I'll go down and plug in down there." It's a misunderstanding of the universal body. Yes, there are Christians down there. There are people down there preaching sound doctrine. Is this all about you, as you were saying? What a selfish, self-centered approach, when God talks about building lives, and relationships, and generations of knowing one another. The whole thing of that kind of a spirit is one of just self-serving, selfish adolescent-type perception of relationships. It's like the kid that says he's just going to pull up--one of your sons saying, "Well, I think I'm going to move to California and live with the Scott family out there. I mean, they are of the same Homo sapiens." There's been an investment. There's a closeness. There's a commonness that's there that you just can't go join another Homo sapiens group. We miss that, I think. In God's genius--we haven't all been saved under the ministry of each person in here. But, where we've been placed, and over a period of time now, lives are being knit. I think to be able to do that, to say, "Well, I think the Lord's leading me here," somewhere in the infant stages of finding out what God's doing in our life. But, once your life has been ordered and you're there, and you're intertwined and all of these things that cause you to become a vessel of edification, there's a sobriety in just ripping out of that. I think that's a very important part of this that a lot of people miss today.

PASTOR CARLSON: We were wondering if the Lord wanted us to say anything.

PASTOR SCOTT: We'll find out in a minute.

PASTOR CARLSON: No pressure at all now! A book I think Chuck introduced me to a number of years ago by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, has a statement, "When Jesus calls a person, He bids him, 'Come, and die.'" Jesus said, "If a man would follow after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me." There's that daily death. But, in the context of what we're describing here, the flesh says, "I've come here so that you're going to be better. So, if you won't let me conform you to what I think is better for you, I'm going to leave." But God brings us here to die. How many men have come through relationships with us that were all for the ministry and the communion, and said, "I would die without this," who, when the Lord Jesus brought them to the place of death to self, and death to vision, and death to ambition, walked [always]? God can't use us as long as we are alive. The humility teaching is the undergirding of this. It's only as I die that God is able to use me. And, because I think I died one time, doesn't mean that now I've arrived. I have died to that, but for Him to use me more there's still more death that has to occur. So, when I get to that place where there's pressure and the Lord's calling me to die, and you're the instrument holding the sickle, I think I'm better than you. Or, at this time I don't want the pressure coming from you, and I resist it, then the flesh begins to say, "It's his fault. I know better. I gleaned more from this other teaching over here." Those are the things we have to resist very strongly. Because when the flesh--which we don't always identify correctly--it's the flesh that wants to resurrect. When the flesh rises up knowing better, the safest place right there is the tomb; just die.

PASTOR SCOTT: It is. That aspect of humility is what we've been talking about. It is the strength, the life that we have. Any other comments so far along these lines?

PASTOR HEGLUND: I can speak to them some of the adolescent spirit and being careful as it relates to knowing those that are over you. I know just kind of relating it to natural adolescents. We're never smarter than when we're teenagers. It kind of goes also with spiritual adolescence, you know; you're just watching things as a teenager. You decide things about how your parents should behave, "When I'm a parent, I'm going to let my kids stay up all night long because that is what would be best." You think all these different things, and you don't really appreciate your parents. As you get older we kind of know the whole progression, right? You get older and you find out that you actually have to get a job. You realize that was what your Dad was doing for all those hours during the day when you were watching TV or doing a half-way job on your homework. That's why you lived in the nice house and the food showed up. As you're getting a job, and you're getting your, whatever it is, $7.00 an hour, and you're thinking, "Man, my Dad's pretty cool." Then, you go to buy a house and you see all that it takes to look around. You have to have so much to qualify. Then, you have so many bills, statements, and all those different things, and you're going, "Wow, my parents went through all this, and they did a really good job. All I can get is this little piddling house and they've had this for a long time." All these are different things that you watch in their lives.

If we're not careful, we do the same things spiritually in knowing those that are over us, when you were talking about experience. We can watch, and because we don't have any experience, we think things should be one way. We think that even our spiritual leadership should be doing more, maybe. This shouldn't happen that way. I'm trying to think of some other examples of how to convey what's on my heart. I remember before I had kids, even being married, and watching other people's kids, before you have experience. You watch, and you think, "My kid's not going to be like that. They're not going to be that messy and drop food on the floor," and the kid you're watching is 8 months old or something! You think that because you are you, you're somehow going to discipline them and grow them. Or, "My teenager's not going to behave that way," and you've got kids that are elementary kids. Of course they don't behave that way yet, they're not teenagers; just being careful to know who you are.

Like you've said, I think the danger can be there as we watch and think we know. We have no experience! I mean, I can think in so many different areas I try to tell people now that I'm helping to be over. "Look man, you do not have to reinvent the wheel," as it comes to different things: being a captain, for instance. If you can have the wisdom enough to know that what you think is probably not right, and to understand that you don't know; there's a lot that you don't know. There's a lot out there that you have no clue about. If you can kind of learn that from your life as a teenager and know that that's the way it's going to be for the rest of your life; and if you're humble enough to watch and get experience, get the value of counsel from those who have experience, that it's going to help you a lot. It's going to bring great safety. So, being careful as you're watching those who are over you, to realize that something might look rough to you about the way something's being done, but there's a reason behind it. "I don't understand why we have to come together all these times for Young Adult meetings. I don't understand why this is this way or that way." Well, there's been 35 years of experience of watching how people behave and this is something to keep us safe. "I think I'm fine. I've reached a place where I can make it on my own. I just like to fellowship with these two families because they are my good friends and they make me feel better." Well, what about all the other people? What about the safety that's been learned over all those years? Just understanding that aspect? I don't feel like I'm communicating it very well.

PASTOR SCOTT: I think one of the important parts as you're sharing here, the adolescents needing to come to experience, has to deal with, again, that Hebrews 13, verse 7 passage of considering the end of the conversation. How do we know those that are over us? Well, you look at the life, the whole span. Not the moment that I'm dealing with here, not the fact that I might be disgruntled or don't agree. Who was it? One of you guys was even sharing over the years. Richard, it might have been you. I don't know; I don't want to indict you in this thing. But, it was interesting. Somebody was talking about over the years we would set a course or bring a vision. It would not be a disagreement but it would be like, "I don't see that. But, what I do know is all those other things I didn't see either, I saw later. I didn't see it then, but I saw it when it happened." That means somebody's seeing things other people don't see. That's called leadership, that's called a visionary. So, to deal in the realm of the seen and to think you're "it" is limiting God's revelation to us to understanding, to your perception, to momentary knowledge, when we need to look at a life such as a Moses, an Elijah, a Samuel, a Joseph, and watch their lives unfold and see the mysteries of God. You're never going to understand it. If you're so fearful that you have to be looking always for the understanding of a situation, you're going to always miss the Spirit of God because you're limited to man. That's what leadership is for. There are people who have done this, have been doing this for years. Pride is the only thing that makes us think that we can do it, too. That's not what you've been called to do. In a fellowship like this, you've been called to oversee your house, and that's where your scope of vision is going to be. You haven't been called to oversee the fellowship. It's very dangerous, then, to make observations beyond your sphere of authority and revelation. That's part of what we're talking about here. So, for the common man to sit here in this congregation and pass judgments on A. W. Tozer, Andrew Murray, and some of these others, "I don't agree. I don't think they did that right." It's like these taxi cab drivers that are criticizing the President, like they have all the information. But see, we don't see that. "This is my opinion. We all know that I'm the expert. I'm the exception." In the body of Christ that's where this whole humility thing was. We need to realize that God in His genius has set some among us (your parents, young people) to set a course for your life, so that you can set a course for your children's lives.

Now, child rearing is one of the big issues among the fellowship. We were talking about this. Do you know of everybody that's left this church--you know we've run off thousands of people--of those that have left the church, probably the highest percentage of things that have caused people to leave the church has been dealing with their children. I'd say way up there, probably 75 percent. Of the other people that left, it was that we dealt with their good friends who couldn't handle the dealing of their children. In other words, they had a greater allegiance to that friend than they did the revelation of God and the vision of God. It is very important to see what it is we are committed to, what course we're on, and what we're following. I was saying, as we are dealing with the children, it is very important for us to realize that as children are being idolized, worshipped in our generation (everybody's always loved their kid; well, not everybody) the natural tendency is to love your children, to protect and to care, and to think they're special. Grandma comes and says how beautiful the baby is and everybody else says, "Yeah, right." They think they're beautiful because they're of them. The rest of us say, "That's an ugly kid." The point being, as children in our midst are being groomed, I'm getting on to this "knowing the end of their conversation." The problem we have here is that we have big gaps in our fellowship. We have some children in families that are third generation brought up in the gospel, three generations of proven fruit. Then we get some new hot shot that rolls in, doesn't have anybody that's--don't have saved parents, don't have committed parents, don't have parents that have revelation, that are now going to think they can reinvent the wheel and come up with something that works better than three generations of proven fruit. That's, literally, what it means when it talks about "knowing the end of their conversation." If this thing is working, what makes you in your great ego think you're going to improve on this and your way's going to be perfection? I love what C. M. Ward said. He was a great preacher. He had just preached this fiery message like only C. M. could preach back in those days, and he said a guy came up to him and said, "C. M., I'm going to take that little talk of yours and make a real message out of it." That's how man works. The guy was being facetious, but I think that's how we are.

Humility is looking around and saying, "That thing is working. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of what's working that's producing godly seed, that's producing generational fruit. Something's right! That's the spirit I think we're talking about. It's vitally important. Are there any other comments?

PASTOR CARLSON: One thing that I appreciate that you shared with us this week, I think it would behoove everyone to hear a little bit about. You told us that when you allow us authority, when you put your hands on us and we've been given authority either in the fellowship here or in the satellite churches, we now become at risk. First, there's the enemy who is going to try to oppose authority. We see the greatest target for the enemy today is the father in the home and everything you see out in the world. So there's that. But, then there's also what is within us. We will begin to drink that if we're not careful. We begin to think that, "Because of me, I'm in authority." We fail to remember that it's because we were recognized and given authority that we have authority. That goes to the deacons. The deacons are to represent you to the people, and the people to you. Of course, the people as they have an affection and allegiance for the man that gives his life for them every day, he has to continually remember that he was placed in there. Beyond that, whether it's the captains of the youth or young adults, or the nursery workers, or those in charge of different media ministries, it's been invested in them by God. If we begin to think of ourselves more highly than we ought, then we don't have the great faith that Jesus spoke of when He looked at the Centurion who said, "I, too, am a man under authority. That's why I have authority." We have to continually remember because as a fellowship we're very active. God gives us things to do. The enemy is going to try to use it to shoot at us so that our roles become ineffective, but also to try to puff us up with it so that we can fall to hurt the overall ministry.

PASTOR SCOTT: How can you discern carnality? I'll try to encapsulate that. I'm going to put it as succinctly as possible. How can we distinguish carnality, versus spiritual understanding of body ministry? Very clearly, you talked about friends. You know I have a friend in the body of Christ. I have a deacon, I have an acquaintance. How do we find out whether we are carnal or not? Is there a greater commitment, love--and I'm not talking about just natural--commitment, love, relationship with the friend, the deacon, than there is with the overseer? Where is your commitment? Where is your allegiance? Where is your affection really? Carnality will be in the natural closeness, spiritual will be in the scheme of the full body ministry. The head, the many members fitly joined together. Head: Jesus. Head: He put gifts in the church. Head: the co-laborers of the associate pastors that are working here. Head: deacon. Head: captain. Head: whatever it might be. So, it's a thing we need to look at. That's why I was pointing out earlier; the greatest defections we've had around here have not had anything to do about doctrine. They've not had anything to do about vision or direction. It's all had to do about inordinate relationships based upon a natural affinity. Because they were offended they left. "I'm offended and I'm going with them." There's no understanding of what the knitting of the body really is. There is no knitting. The knitting was natural. It's no different than the world's knitting together. It's no different than clan knitting and families. It's no different than Kiwanis club, and the baseball team, and whatever else. If the commitment isn't to the genius of the body of Christ: headship, order, authority, and leadership, those are the things we have to ask ourselves. Natural pride and natural self-love deals with what that I can touch and feel and not what's eternal and invisible. So, that's how we judge ourselves.

PASTOR HEGLUND: I was just going to say, one of the things I've had people come to me, like in the Young Adults, and say, "Really, I appreciate everything. Now, I feel I'm mature enough to do this thing on my own more." Instead of realizing that the only reason you're mature in that way is because of, in this case, the Young Adult ministry--which is your vision. That's what it has worked through, and body ministry. Instead of just saying, "Well, I've reached this level. I'm going to go do this with these other two families. Here I go," Now it's "I'm going to put this back into the body because I'm not forgetting the rock from which I'm hewn. I understand the only reason I'm in this place is because of your faithfulness, and Pastor, your faithfulness." So, the principle is of committing to faithful men who are going to teach others also. If you understand how body ministry is working and if you're not carnal, once you've come to certain point you're going to recognize those two things. "Well now, people who have been given much, then much is required. I've been given much." You're also going to realize that the servant isn't greater than his master. Where did I get all this? I got it because you were faithful, the ministry was faithful, and the body was faithful. So now, instead of making a judgment on this, "We need this or more of this," you're ranking under. You're finding your place based on the fact that you've been given much.

PASTOR SCOTT: Any other comments so far? We're just throwing out a couple of things. Jim?

PASTOR JIM LAROCK SR.: Just from Ephesians 4, I believe it speaks both to the immaturity and the carnality. In verse 13, he speaks of, "...come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Verse 14, of course, speaks of being no more children. No more children, no more immature in your understanding of Father's plan, purpose, order, design, the headship that you were referring to, all the orderliness that there is in the church of Jesus Christ, the body figure that is used to describe the church. No more children tossed to and fro. Here one day, whether it be with a doctrine, whether it be with a personal preference, how easily we can lose sight of the course that the Lord has us on, the plan and purpose that He has for our lives, consistent with the way He has placed us in the body. The sleight of men, every wind of doctrine, the sleight of men, the cunning craftiness, those are distinctly different things. Some of it is just immaturity, some of it is bad doctrine, some of it needs to be seen as demonic in its origins; there's a full range that he addresses here. Then, he goes on and he speaks in verse 15 of the truth that will bring about the maturity, growing up under the head, Jesus, and from whom, from that headship--again, always that picture of the headship of Jesus Christ--here he speaks of the universal body and all members fitting in particular. But, it's the same headship we would experience in the home where the husband is the head of the wife, setting course for the family, the fellowship, and you, as the pastor of this flock, also functioning as the apostle over many fellowships. It's that same picture that we receive over and over again. Part of growing up is recognizing that this is God's plan found in every aspect of our lives. When we are moving in this kind of understanding, it's a sign of maturity. We speak of what characterizes carnality, what is a plain indicator of carnality? It's a lack of understanding of this order, this design. That God has placed everyone in the body as it pleases Him, and when every member takes upon the role, and recognizes it. "In God's sovereign purpose, He has placed me under this headship, in this home, in this body, under this vision." When everybody embraces that and gets with it, then the body does make increase. Verse 16 is such a precious verse. "...the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part." Every member is effectually contributing to the edification of the home, to the community, to the universal body of Christ when there is this understanding of God's order. When there's a breakdown, whether there is false doctrine, carnality, immaturity, then there is weakness. When there is this understanding, there is this edification; the body makes increase of itself to the edifying of itself in love.

PASTOR SCOTT: That's the distinction of maturity, in living for others and not ourselves. What's best for the community and not my own personal affinity at this particular time, or my interest, or my specific momentary need? But, am I fulfilling my role that is producing in an on-going manner the building of the body of Christ? That's when you begin to be mature. That drudgery of every day just grinding out your role as the father does. It's not the momentary getting to go play and do those things. So, that is the maturation process. Are there any other comments?

PASTOR MILLER: I think it's good to just repeat; I think people are aware, but it's always good to remind all of us that there's only one person sitting on stage that sets course. All of the other pastors on staff here--one of our primary jobs is to uphold the vision that's been given through you through your gift. Even the other pastors here, though they are senior pastors in satellite churches, they do the same thing. They are there to duplicate the vision here. That's a very important part. You made a comment in the back, "If anybody sitting out there starts to hear or see a different vision emerging, either from one of us, or from a deacon, then they need to beware." They need to bring that to the light because something's going wrong.

PASTOR SCOTT: I think that's one of the things. What do we as individuals need to see? There's a lot of stuff going on out there. You have this purpose driven thing, you have the seeker friendly thing, you have the T. D. Jakes carnivals, and you have Rod Parsley and all of that nonsense. On every corner there are all of these winds of doctrine that are blowing. What is the course for your life? What's right to you? What's right to you is the course that's being set here, because this is where God put you. What if you want out? Is there a way to get out of this? We were talking about that. We were talking about the proper method. What if Richard feels that he wants out? Is there a proper way for one of the pastors to leave? Yes, God makes provision for all of this. The proper way to leave is to be sent. You come, you present your position, you receive counsel, guidance, and you're sent. If you leave any other way, it's defecting. You can't just pick up and go.

What about false doctrine? We were talking about that in the back. What would be one of the ways that would justify us departing? Well heresy, false doctrine; we can't let that bring destruction. What if Richard begins to think, "Well, I don't agree with that. That teaching is wrong. The application of it is wrong"? What would be your first course in a situation like that? It's the same for anyone else in the body. Your first course would be what?

PASTOR MILLER: Come to you.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. You come with the Scriptures and you say, "This is what I see." And, if in the process I say, "No, that's not right. Here's what right," and you're still convinced of that, then you come with two or three others. You come with the other pastors. Now, when would it be dangerous in doing something like that? We talked about that.

PASTOR MILLER: If I was the odd man out. If I'm saying, "The rest of you five guys are wrong."

PASTOR SCOTT: That's right. And, saying, "I've got the truth here." Then, what we have to do is sit and weigh and say, "Okay now, what is it that's so drastically changed? What I've seen as truth for 30 years, and I see what it's produced, has something radically changed? It hasn't, but I have. Maybe (I know the odds aren't very good) but maybe what's been true and right for 30 years and hasn't changed, but I've radically changed. Maybe I'm wrong." Do I have that kind of a spirit? Can I entertain that? "Could I possibly be wrong?" If we can't entertain that, we're already wrong. So, these are things we have to look at. Could you be right and everybody else wrong? Yes. Then what do you do? You make that decision and the reasons for it clear publicly, so that others could have that choice, also, if they were involved in that same situation. But, none of it's ever done subversively. It's never right subversively. It's never right in darkness. It's never right with criticism. It's never right with haughtiness. That's how you do these things; frankly, most of the time it's not done that way.

What if it's not heresy? What if it's, "I feel led"? We have people that feel led. "The Lord's leading me to Georgia because I'm going to get twice as much money." Is it always God when you're going to get twice as much money? Those are things where we have to receive some counsel in these different areas. How ready are we to hear the truth when it's twice as much money, ten times as much money? That's why you can't just pick up and leave. Satan can throw the hook in there, offer you ten times as much money, you just pick up and leave, "Bless God, I hear what you guys are saying, but I've heard from God!" You heard from George, or actually Hamilton, that would be better, right? (How many of you know who Hamilton is, what denomination he's on? Okay, Lincoln.) But, anyway, those are the things that protect us as a body. We're just bringing some of these things up because with the environment we're in today, with the purpose driven church, with the leadership wanting to market to the people what they want to hear through demographics and these kinds of things, biblical oversight is going to seem stranger and stranger, of people ruling over you. You need to be very comfortable with who's ruling over you, and being ruled over, and knowing that it's God's wisdom and God's method. Then, understanding that there is always recourse that God gives to you protecting yourself as an individual, and being able to trust God, and walk in faith. The key is if what drew you, if what sustained you hasn't changed but you have, maybe you're the problem. Those are things that I think are safety for us. We are just about out of time, any other comments?

PASTOR GARDNER: In the last couple of days about people listening to other people teach. They don't know anything about most of them other than what they hear on the tape or read in the book. I'm going to give you an example. When I ask the question--if I'm wrong in the way I've dealt with this, then this will be good for everybody to hear. You just mentioned a number of men that you listen to. I think probably people here do, a lot of men that you read, and they're all good, none of them are perfect, because none of us are, but we know they are on course.

I used to listen to a man either by way of radio or TV quite a bit a few years ago, two three years ago, John Hagee. It seemed to be a good word. I didn't know a whole lot about him. Periodically I'd see his--the teaching was from one of his services, and you got to see the people there. I'd look at everything, I'm thinking, "Man, those pews are empty. What is this? Well, maybe they've all got the flu. The flu hit them today or something like that." But, anyway, this was a man I used to listen to. I don't listen to him anymore because I judged something that he was doing, and I thought, "This doesn't seem right to me." I don't need to listen to this man, but he had a good word. There came a time when it seemed--he was teaching against the exalting of man. Then, he started being with a lot of people that taught that: T. D. Jakes, Jesse Duplantis and a few others. There's a whole host that you can mention. He would go to their meetings to teach. I thought, "Well, maybe God told him to go because he's the only one that's got the pure Word, it seems to me." Then, sometime ago he started talking about he was going to start having these meetings where now he's bringing people in to speak to the flock that God has placed him over. Not too long ago he was having a meeting. He was going to be speaking, of course, but he was going to have T. D. Jakes, Jesse Duplantis, Paula White, I can't remember who the other person was. But, when he said that, they were coming in to preach in his pulpit I thought, "Oh my goodness!" What I'm saying I'm judging, I'm thinking, "Hmm, I hear what he says. I don't know this man personally. I'm not saying the man's not saved, because the one I'm really looking out for is me, or anybody else that I know that might listen to this man. I'm listening to this now and what he's saying and who he's going to have and I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness. I don't agree with anything those three clowns say!"

But, when I heard that I thought, "What in the world?" This man can't be--you can't have the sweet and the bitter water coming out of the same faucet here. What he says may sound right, but there's something behind all of this that's not right. You can't possibly take your flock and subject them to that. I mean, if you're going to go to their meeting because God has told you to go because you've got the Word, okay, I can deal with that. But now, you've brought that to your people, and I'm thinking, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is just..."

PASTOR SCOTT: Psalm 119:63, "I am a companion of them that fear thee and keep Your commandments." Who we hang out with tells who we are.

PASTOR GARDNER: Right! So, what I'm saying is, I'm listening. The other day I heard this man, knowing now; I just listened for a few minutes, and I thought, "What is he teaching now?" It sounded as though what he was teaching was different than what those three people teach. But, I thought, "I don't see how that can be. How can you companion with those people and somewhere what they're teaching isn't mixed in with what you're doing?" I'm thinking, "I don't need this. I've enjoyed listening to this man, but I don't need this." I don't care if he's got little one-liners that are really beneficial to me, I've got a good word here. I've got a good word in the men you mentioned, the different books you talked about. There are other people out there. I passed a judgment on that man that he's not what he thinks he is. I never met the man. But, when I saw what he was now beginning to surround himself with and what he was subjecting his people to that's when--that really got me that he brought that to his people.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. The scriptural principle is how can two walk together except they be agreed? We are a companion of those who fear Him, who keep His precepts. All of those are biblical laws that can't be broken. But, who we're hanging with is who we are; regardless that we might still be preaching the message that got us where we are. John Hagee knows the Bible as good as anybody I know. He is probably the best teacher on eschatology that there is in the country today. He's in danger.

PASTOR GARDNER: He is. The reason I was asking what I was asking was because I know what we talk about. Periodically you hear from here, and most of what I hear from out there I don't know. People I've never heard. I don't know anything about them. But, I know that man through teaching over the years, and I'm thinking, "You know what? The day we live in, this man could very subtly (he may not even know it yet) be bringing me false doctrine," I judged that based on who he was surrounding himself with. I said, "Okay, that's the end of that."

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, those are wise things because you made the comment the other day, "I don't need that." Do we need, and that's the issue; do we need other than what we have? The question would be for any of us, "Am I doing everything I know?" If I'm not doing everything I know, why do I need more? Why not perfect what you already know, why not put to work the basics of what God's called you to do, where He's placed you in that understanding? Why do we have to keep learning and knowing? Is there something out there that we think we don't have that we need when all things that pertain to life and godliness have already been given to us in the presence of the Spirit of God, the indwelling Spirit, and the lordship of Jesus in our lives? We're in a world--Richard you started the whole thing off. I think so much of what the real issue is; in the New Testament church these people had just the doctrine of that local ministry. Today, we worship information. We think the more information we have the safer we are. "Somewhere in sifting through all of that I'll find something that will set me free." What will set you free is doing what you already know to do, being obedient and faithful in the small things. Because we're in an information society, we're so susceptible to wanting more, having to have more, that we're so much more susceptible to false doctrine. Then, we're getting all this information poured in. We don't have a clue about the people that are bringing it to us. Who are these people? There's the natural tendency for all of us to make people what we want them to be if we don't know them. The old saying from years ago, these people are now experts because we don't know anything about them. We just know what they are saying. An expert is a guy with a briefcase 20 miles from home. He can be anything he tells you he is, or that you believe him to be. What about who you're living with, who you know knows the truth, somebody that's got something working? They're not trying to sell you something that you don't know anything about. So it's vitally, vitally important I would say, for your wisdom. Real wisdom, for many of us, would be to stay off the Internet. If you read every book we have for you in that bookstore back there and you're in all the services here and you're doing what you are being told to do, guess what? You're going to make it. "Yes, but will I be the most informed Christian on the planet? Will I become Super Saint through this?" If you do everything that's in that bookstore, you will.

We had some young man in here the other day that was criticizing A. W. Tozer; "I don't know A. W. Tozer, his family." You'll never be able to carry the shoe laces of that man! The audacity, the pride, and haughtiness of the statement, it just blows me away! The perception that people have of themselves and proven saints of generations of fruit, because of our own self-perception and something we've gleaned from somewhere else. To make that kind of a statement when those that are here in leadership laud this man and honor and hold him up as a resource. Those are some dangerous things in the way that you perceive yourselves. All we're saying is just protect yourself in this generation. Don't get caught up in this information generation in thinking that there's something out there that you're being denied. That's exactly what the devil did to Eve. "There's stuff out there you don't know about." There's a bunch of stuff out there you don't know about! There's a whole bunch of people out there smarter than us. There are better teachers, there are better theologians, and there are better expositors. But, guess what? The sovereign God put you here. There's fruit that's bearing fruit that's bearing fruit. Now, because you took a wife or you have a child it's not sufficient because you're special is a very dangerous place to be. Those are some things we need to look at and question in our own pursuit. Be content with God's wisdom, God's mercy, and God's provision for us. I think it will be very, very important to the next generation that they can follow your example of faithfulness, of true trust in God. The real impetus behind that thing is fear. "I don't have control. I don't have guarantees. I don't have all of the pieces and therefore..." Well, let's finish it. Therefore, you can't live by faith, trust God, and walk in the spirit. You have to be in control. You have to have the answers. You have to have steps A, B, C, D, E, F, G, guaranteed result. That's not living in the spirit. That's not living by faith, so be very careful.

We'll speak some more to it. I think Richard or Chuck is going to be sharing in the next teaching some of these same basic principles. That will encourage us in being confident in knowing those that are laboring among us and over us in the Lord.

Father, we just thank You for Your wisdom and Your knowledge that's being expressed in Your church today. Thank You for all of these men that are part of the family, that are serving in Your Kingdom, Father, that are placed here as gifts by You and for You. Father, as always, we pray your peace upon them; for Elston, for Les, Jim, Forbe, all the men here Father. We thank You for who they are and that You placed them in our midst that we might co-labor together. We pray for Tony, and Ron, and Rob tonight, Father as we gather that You would strengthen them and sustain them in the daily battles that are taking place; for Daniel, and Chacha, for Patrick. Father, we are one family. You've given us one vision. There are other visions that are being effected, they are of You, they are for You, they are for Your glory. They are just not what You've called us to do. Give us the strength to do what You've called us to do. Give us the contentment that it's enough to hear "Well done, good and faithful servant." Give us the strength to finish the course. We ask You to be exalted in it in Jesus' name. Amen. Praise God.

Be sure, before you go, to greet the guys that are visiting. Take a little bit of time and get some fellowship there. Don't hold them up too long though, they have to go eat. We've only had 42 meals in the last three days. Those of you who have provided the food, thank you; we do appreciate it.

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