Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Panel Discussion

PASTOR SCOTT: I was sitting in the back room talking about some of you and thought that we'd better give you a chance to defend yourselves. Actually, we were discussing whether or not we should try to have a panel and take a really good look at the subject matter. I think the teaching at this point has been going along pretty well. I think we have addressed a lot of things. In the conversation that we were having in the back, it came down to two basic principles of truths that we need to address. It is pretty interesting, as we are talking about the subject matter as a whole, that we identified that this is primarily a female problem. I say "primarily," not exclusively. We are trying to look and identify some of these things. The reason is, of course, because, as we all know, women just speak a lot more words than men do.

Years ago, I was watching this movie. I can't even remember the name of it; I wish I could. There was this scene that I've spoken toward before, but it was tremendous. These guys, they were not cowboys, but they were just some guys from down in the Texas area. This one guy was standing there and had the heel of his boot up over the rail of a fence. He was leaning back on the thing. The other guy stood there beside him and had a straw and was chewing on it. The other guy says, "How you been?" The guy is spinning the straw and says, "Good." Time goes by a little bit longer, and he says, "Well, nice talking to you." "Yep." And that was it. There is a difference. We were talking in the back, asking some of our wives, "What is your problem? Uh, I don't get it. Can you help me?" We did not say "problem." We are just telling the truth. I said, "I don't understand; can you help me understand?" And we sort these things out through talking and listening.

I am trying to identify the root, because that is what we have to get to. If we don't understand the root of the problem, we can't really fix it. If we don't know it is a problem, we can't fix it. Greer made reference to the point that whenever she is off somewhere with some women and she comes back, the first thing I ask her is, "What did you guys talk about?" Do you men know what your wives are talking about? Are you aware of what is going on? She said she thinks that is very helpful because it causes her to go back and re-examine her conversation. "What was I talking about?" "What came up in that conversation?" "Was everything that was addressed necessary?" I think that a lot of time, men, if we would talk more with our wives, they might not have to talk so much to other people. You'd be there and be aware and maybe be able to speak towards certain things. What I'd like to do tonight is see if there are any questions that you have or any areas that we can make sure that we are hearing. We are certainly not saying that we are not to converse or that we are not to have fellowship. We are saying, especially for many of you ladies, to guard against some of these propensities.

I gave an example in the back. Lisa brought it up. She said, "You know, sometimes we get in a conversation and hear something said, and we relate it back to what we saw six months ago and what we heard four weeks ago. We think, ‘Here's another piece of the puzzle!' and then we speak about these things. Ladies, being given so much to specific details and a multitude of words, let things slip out." I gave the example of, "Remember three months ago when we were talking about this, and So-and-so had on that blue dress and those red shoes--and about that blue sweater, isn't that getting a little tight? Don't you think...?" Then we go. These words are coming out along with so many specifics and so many details.

Turn to Ecclesiastes for just a second. We'll pick it up here and then get into the conversation and see if we can identify where that line is and how not to give place to the enemy in any of our lives. I think there's the maternal instinct to be involved and to care for. That can be some of the root. One of the problems in men and the way we relate to you ladies is that we just want to fix the problem and go on to the next thing. So we realize that there are two different aspects to how we relate. Let's look at the biblical principles.

Ecclesiastes 5:1-2 says, "Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few." He's even making reference in this verse to the way we relate to God. Make sure your words are not rash. What is the motive behind your words? He speaks back towards Proverbs 10. Look over at Proverbs 10:11, "He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall. The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins. [That is a very powerful phrase when we begin to look at the motive in our lives.] ...Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction. The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty."

Then He makes this statement to us in verse 18, "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool. In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise. The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth. The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom." He goes on and makes some more comments, but the key that I wanted to point out is, "In a multitude of words there wanteth not sin."

We have addressed some of these core issues. We talked about mother Eve and her lack of trust in Father and her desire to live outside of Adam's oversight. We have addressed those principles so many times. I am going to take just a second to let the guys speak about things that stood out to them in the discussion in the back room and in the teaching, and then we'll see if there are any other questions that might be helpful to us. Chuck, I know we were making some observations. It would be good to share a couple things that stood out to you, and we'll see where we'll go from there.

PASTOR LAROCK: Something that stood out to me was what you said just a moment ago about determining what is appropriate and what is inappropriate and where that line is. We care about one another, and we make observations about things that we see in the lives of our friends and family here, but, as Pastor shared, if we are not part of the problem or part of the solution then it would be a good thing to ask yourself, "What am I getting ready to say that is going to contribute to the solution?" That, of course, applies if we are talking about someone else.

Pastor also used an example of how sometimes we go from just generic speaking to passing judgments. We make an observation about someone who is going on their third cruise this year and then we make an observation like, "Why are they going on another cruise?" What is your heart motive for making that statement? We can very skillfully disguise our words and have a motive that is really wrong. If we are really good with our words, we can make it look like we are really caring and really concerned, but it can be used to disguise. The Psalmist talks about how the words can be smooth like butter but you can have war and hatred and strife in your heart.

We have to catch those words and repent before they go out and hurt somebody else. If you see that wickedness in your heart and you know something is about to come out that is judgmental or critical or you see something that comes from your own envy, jealousy, or discontentment, then you need to repent of it. A lot of times when you make the comment about someone's third cruise, it is not that you care that they are going on the third cruise, it is just that you have only had two. It stems from our own discontentment. If we had six cruises that year we probably wouldn't care about these people who had the third cruise. We'd think, "Oh, maybe they'll be catching up with me shortly." But it all just comes from our own discontentment. Are we happy? Are we content? Are we happy and thankful for what the Lord's provided for us? Are we able to have that genuine spirit that Pastor was talking about this morning, to be able to say, when you hear about someone being blessed, "Wow! That is cool. That is a blessing. The Lord has made that provision for them. I am sure they will get some needed rest." Let our words be seasoned with salt and have that graciousness. It only comes from a heart that is truly content. When you really feel that contentment, you can say, "Man, I am so blessed! That is great that God's blessing them. Praise God!" Just remember to put a watch over your lips and evaluate why we are saying those things. Be honest with yourself and consider your own heart motives. All of us need to do this. This teaching is not just for those people that you're thinking about when Pastor is teaching. It is for you. It is for me.

PASTOR SCOTT: If we had that observation of a family taking their third cruise, and we were really concerned that this was affecting the fellowship and their relationship with Father, then we talked about the difference of how we would respond.

PASTOR LAROCK: If you hear that and you think, "It seems like that person is missing a lot of church and I know that there have been times when they have not been in a fellowship that I was at, and I really missed them and their gift and what they contribute to the body. I wonder if they are getting a little distracted? I wonder, maybe the blessings are becoming a weight." If you really love them and you are really concerned about them, you're not going to talk about them to a friend or share your concerns with whoever it is that you're talking with and then the next person that you talk to and the person after that. You're going to go to them and say, "You know, these are some observations I have made and I am missing you personally and just wondered if you have thought about this." If you really have that genuine heart's care and concern and love, then you'll go to the person, as Pastor said this morning, and "Speak the truth to them and speak grace about them." Be gracious if you're going to talk about me. Interpret events in the way of grace and let your words be based on that. When you speak to me, speak the truth.

PASTOR SCOTT: I was sharing with the guys that I don't always hear the one-liners. Sometimes I do, but don't necessarily get them. But that comment really stood out to me this morning when I heard it come out of my mouth. It is so important that we relate that way. If we can relate that way, then we are going to solve a lot of problems. We are going to keep ourselves in a good place spiritually.

Jon, you were commenting in the back that you thought that two one-liners summed up the teaching. It would make services a lot shorter. We take these basic principles and give the Reader's Digest version, but how does it really apply? We can make that statement, but the fact is most of us then need help getting this thing to our daily application. We can go to Home Fellowship Group where everybody spouts the principles and the statements, but on a daily basis it doesn't always work. That is why we have to go over and over and over many of the specifics.

Are there any questions that stood out to any of you in the teachings to this point? Is there anything that was stated that you might have a question on? We definitely want to address those specifics. One question that came up was concerning how we relate to our spouses. In a teaching that we did a number of weeks back, a the comment was made in relating to your spouse, "How can you gossip to yourself?" Which one of you had commented on that in the context? I can't remember.

PASTOR LAROCK: I think a few of us did, but I think that you were teaching on husbands and wives at the time. And the context, as I recall, was husbands getting the female perspective.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right.

PASTOR LAROCK: And the wife is to be seeking wisdom from her husband in areas of the oversight of the home. You were talking about each one recognizing their role.

PASTOR SCOTT: If I am involved in a situation, let's say I am having a little bit of a conflict with Chuck. He and I are in fellowship, and we are having a little bit of conflict. Then I go to my wife and say, "Here is something that I am involved in with Chuck. What is your perspective?" I am involved. If you're not part of the problem or part of the solution, then stay out. But, that is something that I am involved in. If I am seeking counsel from my spouse like, "Do you see that in me? How do you see this?" then that is different than me talking with Chuck about brother So-and-so's third cruise, which doesn't involve us. Neither one of us are involved in that situation, and that is the thing that we don't have any business relating back and forth, whether it is a spouse or not. It doesn't involve either one of us, so if I transfer that information to you, then I am getting you involved in being a busybody, backbiter, or a talebearer.

Some of you are bringing that into your home, and some of you men need to put a stop to it. Just say, "How does that involve us and how does that edify? Why is that even an issue here?" Begin to address some of these things, because if we don't identify it at the moment, then it becomes part of our habit. It is amazing to me, and I'll guarantee that the people that are most involved are the ones that don't think that it is problem. It is so natural for them. Then it begins to be addressed by those of us that care, and you begin to see it being addressed over and over. You finally say, "Man, that is the sixth person this hour that has said that to me. I wonder if I am saying more things than I thought I was." That is how we help each other. We need to look for that.

Were there any questions on application or anything other than that? That was one question that came up. Is that clear? Okay. Yes, there is a hand back there.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #1: Pastor, you have made the statement in many teachings over the years, as well as in this one, that you can't really gossip going up. The principle has been taught here from the pulpit that if you are going up then you are not gossiping.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #1: However, I've heard in some of the teachings, like what was brought out just a minute ago about the comment, "Well, how can you gossip if talking to your spouse about a subject?" I am just trying to correlate that with the fact that they are going up to their head, just like I'd be going up to my head. The second part to that question is, let's say somebody over you in the Lord is coming to you and asking you a question, and they just want to know something. I am just trying to catch the balance of sharing things with people who ask you questions about people in the family or whatever.

PASTOR SCOTT: I think I hear what you're asking. Let me address it and then see if I heard you properly. Let's first define what I mean by "going up." You can't gossip "going up." "Going up" is, if you're not part of the problem or part of the solution. "Going up" means that I am aware of a situation that isn't in my sphere of responsibility or authority to address. I've already spoken to this person directly. Remember, in the context of the teaching here that Jesus is giving, if you remember if your brother has ought against you, go to him, then come. We have all those principles of what to do when there's strife and when my brother sins against me. If he sins against me, what do I do? I go to him. I rebuke him. So, if we are talking about overt trespasses, I address that individual. If they don't hear me, I bring others. If they don't hear them, I take it to the church. These are different areas that are involved.

Now, remember when it says, I go bring others in this conflict, that doesn't mean that I go fill all of them in on my side of the story and then bring them. You say, "I'd like you all to come with me for just a moment," and they hear it for the first time in the presence of that person. Then they hear their side, and then a judgment can be passed. So these are things that are very important as it pertains to personal relationships.

Once I've addressed a situation to that specific person, for me to take it to anybody else, other than somebody that is either involved in it or in the solution that can solve it going up, that causes a problem. We are going to get into backbiting, slander, all of these different areas that we have been talking about. The reason to transfer that information is for the purpose of solving the problem, healing the person, and bringing reconciliation. We are not just transferring information because So-and-so hurt my feelings. Now I am talebearing. "You know, I just talked to So-and-so and they did this, and they hurt my feelings." That is talebearing. You're not fixing anything. These are different areas that we addressed. The wife going to the husband, you say, "They are just going up." They are not going up if they are telling you about So-and-so's third cruise and, "I don't know that they should be involved in this. You know, didn't they go on three other cruises and miss Home Fellowship Group?" You say, "Well, they are just going up. They are just filling me in on this information." You don't need that information. It is none of your business, and they don't need to be talking to you about that.

Now if it involves them, if somebody has trespassed against your wife, for instance, and they come to you and say, "So-and-so's just done this, and I want to make sure that I am going to handle this principle right in Matthew." That is a different story now. You're dealing in that oneness. Because the two of you are one, you're involved, and this is looking for a solution. So, I don't know if that--does that start speaking toward it some?

What are we talking about, family. "Well, I was just over at Uncle Joe's house. He was telling about Aunt Millie. And this was that problem, and that is the problem, and these things are going on and...." Why? What? "Well, yes, that involves me because now So-and-so's upset and they are related to this." Then put somebody back on course to solve it, but don't just keep talking and hashing these things back and forth, because in a multitude of words there's going to be sin going on. "Well, it is being brought into our house, and it is a concern over here, and it is two generations. My fourth cousin on my mother's side is doing this, and it is really got everybody upset." Men, just share. That doesn't involve us. Okay. "Are you that upset about it?" "Yes." "Then let's go do something about it." "No, we don't want to get involved. We just want to talk about it." "No. We are either going to go solve it, address it as sin, or we don't necessarily need to get ourselves in all the multitude of words and conversations that are going on." So I don't know if that address it or not. Does that, is that speaking toward part of it?

MAN IN CONGREGATION #1: It does. The other part though is a little more maybe it is a little too complicated to get into. Let's just say my dad's having an issue. And somebody here in the fellowship--one of the deacons, one of the pastors--comes up to me and says, "Hey, how's your dad doing?" So I tell them. Let's just say, for example, it is Mike. I go and I share with Mike, "Hey, there's this." He loves my dad a lot, and he'll ask me from time to time, not specifically pointing out this. Just as a representation, let's just say my dad's struggling and I share that with Mike. But Mike is never going to my dad one-on-one. He has never approached my dad; or he doesn't really go to my dad at all, but he cares for my dad and he asks me. Is that gossip for me to tell Mike? I am just using that as an example.

PASTOR SCOTT: Okay. That is a good illustration. And the answer to that would be "no." Because your assumption, now, is that someone in a position of responsibility and authority (which Mike is) is assisting the deacons in that group. He, to your knowledge, is fulfilling a specific capacity to edify the body. My assumption is, if I knew he was asking me this for a specific purpose, that this information can go to leadership, that is going to ultimately help my dad, help whatever else the situation might be. So my assumption is when somebody that is in a position of responsibility and authority comes and says, "How is So-and-so doing?" or "I understand you were relating to So-and-so the other day and this was said." "Well, yes, and they...." That is the purpose, to edify. This is stuff that we are fulfilling our role.

He put in the church these gifts for the edification of the body; to build it up. A lot of times, that just takes knowing a lot of information. I think over the years--we were talking about this--I think over the years, and I don't see the problem in our fellowship here. I made reference to that. There is not a maliciousness; we love each other. You know, we cross the line, these things that we have to become more careful about. It is very rare that I've heard somebody say, "You know, I don't feel comfortable sharing that, because it is going to go from my deacon through the whole church." Most of those in leadership here, very seldom has anything, to my knowledge, become common knowledge from that realm down. It is never been something that's been addressed or that we've heard of, in recent years especially. Most of you can be pretty comfortable if one of your deacons comes and is looking for information. That is very guarded. I go over it all the time. There are things at times that I'll tell the men, "This is not for your wives to know. This is not for anybody to know. This stays right here in this room." If it gets out then, and I hear it coming from anywhere else, it doesn't take long to chase down twelve people. You can find the source when it is only twelve.

So there are things over the years that we have been privy of. There are things that the deacons don't know. That is just right here. Nobody else knows. You know; we know; that is it. And if it goes past that, it doesn't take long to figure out where it came from. We do a pretty good job. It is pretty safe here when somebody in authority comes and asks you for information, that it is going to be guarded and be used for good. Does that help answer that?

Praise God. Any comments that you guys may have along these lines?

PASTOR LAROCK: What if a wife is thinking, "I see something over here in this person's life." But maybe she sees herself as someone that has a hair trigger, and she doesn't want to be just going around getting in people's face all the time or even bringing up the subject, if it is maybe not an issue. She just wants to check with her husband. Is there a way to do that that is a Christlike way, where she could say like, "I am spending time around this sister, and, it just seems like she doesn't spank her kids as often as she should. Are you seeing that at all?" Is that something you think I should address with her, or is it always best to just go directly to that other, to that mother?

PASTOR SCOTT: I think in situations like this, we are getting back into that. And the specifics of it are going to be so unique to every situation. But that can be done, I think, in a way that, based upon motive, can be very productive for the body and very careful for ourselves too, by knowing ourselves, because the husband and wife are one. It relates partly to what Mike was saying there in a relationship here of a woman going to her head and saying, "You know, do you think I am going to get into a realm here that is not my business? Can you help me, knowing certain propensities?" That is wisdom. Those are things that are seeking my protection, mutual edification, because motive becomes the whole issue.

PASTOR LAROCK: And like you said a moment ago, if the husband says, "Yes, that may be a legitimate thing," then you need to go. It can't just end there. "Well, I just kind of got that off my chest. I said that sister So-and-so let their kid run wild."

PASTOR SCOTT: "I feel better."

PASTOR LAROCK: Yes. "I just wanted to say that; I wanted to criticize." The follow-up has to be there unless the husband says, "Well, I'll keep my eye on it and see." Then you can let it go. But, if your motive really is to bring life and edification, then you can't just let something that seems to be a legitimate concern just lie there after you've spoken about it.

PASTOR SCOTT: Let's take it a step further now. So, now the husband goes, "Hmm. I think I am going to go ask one of the pastors if they've seen this." "My wife made this observation, and I am thinking about giving her this direction. Is there anything that you are aware of that could help in this situation?" Is he gossiping? No. Now the observation comes back: Pastor says, "You know, this is something that...." I know some of you ladies think we are picking on you, but we are not. We are trying to preserve ourselves here. Our strength is not in our numbers; our strength is in our unity and oneness. An area that has come to my attention more and more is that we laugh off the Calvary Temple "grapevine" as if it is a joke. It is not a joke! It is a place that Satan can take advantage of us if we are not careful. This is what we are addressing. But it is up to the pastor to tell that guy, "You know, this is the twelfth observation that your wife has made this week." Then we have another situation to address, don't we? So, you can see how it can be productive on both ends, but going up will not ever get you in trouble. What Chuck was sharing, I think, is very good to address.

Any other questions? Okay, we have one over here.

WOMAN IN CONGREGATION #1: Pastor, my question kind of goes along the lines of what he asked and I think your answer was very clear. But in the past, primarily in Young Adults, people will be in a group talking, and there might be a captain there, and a conversation will take place that is not edifying. Just to clarify, to make sure I understand what you're saying, just because there happens to be a captain or, let's say, a deacon or a pastor, there that you are talking to doesn't give you license to just start talking about people. It is really only if you are a part of the problem or if the person is standing there going to get counsel about something. Is that correct? Is that what you are saying?

PASTOR SCOTT: Yep. Um-hmm.

WOMAN IN CONGREGATION #1: Okay, because in the past I've heard people say, "Well, I was talking to a captain," or "I was talking to a deacon," but they never go back to that person and address anything. They thought that just because they were talking to a captain or a deacon that it was okay.

PASTOR SCOTT: This is an area where the great responsibility comes to that role, especially of deacons. You see, none of these things stop at that level. The deacons are a conduit; that is their whole role. They are servants; they are conduits. They are taking information and transferring it up to the pastors, and they are carrying it back to the individuals. The deacons are not the authority; they are the conduit. Their role of servant is one that represents me, that relates decisions that are being made. So, if you're just sitting there and think, "Well, because this is the deacon, I am just going to have this conversation," then they are just gossiping with you if they are not coming back and bringing some form of representation and bringing back some form of a judgment or decision. I know that is not what our men do, but the assumption that because this is in the presence of one of these people, then it is alright is not right. If it is just conversation, there is nothing wrong with that. Like if we are just talking about Joe Blow going on their cruise and whatever and going, "Well, praise God! I wonder where they are going." "I heard they were going to the Bahamas this time." "Yes, this time." Now we have a problem. It is whenever we get into those kind of statements that are so casual, many times, that people just let slide. We can't let that slide. "What do you mean?" Address the issue. If we care for one another, and I hear this being said, I am concerned now about bitterness, jealously, covetousness, discontentment, and pride. What would cause me to have to make that statement?

Some of us were talking about this in the back. Some of us think our opinions are the best and need to be stated at all times. That is pride. You don't need to pass judgment on everybody. I was telling them I am a person who is very opinionated. I make and pass judgments and make comments a lot more than I should. I need to guard my mouth. I will say things about things I don't even have conviction on! It is just like some of you will do. I hear myself say that. Some of you are going, "That is stupid." Well, usually it is, but a lot of times it is just "different than I would do it." I've tried to guard and different things and just when somebody will even comment, just say, "Well, that is not how I would have done it." I am not talking in the oversight capacity. I am just talking in my sinner capacity. Not in my pastoral capacity, you know. Just in my daily sinner capacity, in my flesh. We all have that. It is in us, and it is in our members. We think our way is better. We think we know better. And we just have to guard the fact that we don't have to speak toward everything and pass judgments and know why and delve in. Let the Holy Spirit bring it to light. If it is a problem, He'll bring it out, and then it can be dealt with. We don't have to be Sherlock Holmes--"I wonder why. I wonder what they meant. I wonder...."

The ladies were saying in the back that men seem to take things more at face value. Somebody will say something, and they are like, "Boy, did you see their eyebrow rise up? What I heard seven years ago, when they...." It is like, dear God, how do you remember all that? So we are dealing from two different realms and we just don't need to solve every mystery. Let God do it.

There was a question up here. Does that help at all?

WOMAN IN CONGREGATION #1: Yes.

PASTOR SCOTT: Did you guys have any comments about that, as far as captains or deacons or whatever, standing around in casual conversation? It was a fairly generic question, and I don't know if we got it or not.

Yes.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #2: Pastor, I have two questions. One is there are people on the prayer list, and I kind of want to get an update sometimes, like, "How are you doing?" I am assuming it is okay to go up and ask them or maybe a family member and say, "How's So-and-so doing physically?"

PASTOR SCOTT: Sure.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #2: The second part of the question is the same with people who may not be doing well spiritually. Sometimes someone gets disciplined, or you hear that someone is struggling and you're praying for them. Is it okay at that point to go up to their father and ask them, "Hey, how are things going? I've been praying for them. Are they doing better?" You don't really want gritty details, you just want to know if they are doing better or not. I was just wondering if it is okay to know, in that way.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. Yes, these are all things, like I said, our relationships and our communication in all of these things are necessary. They are not only necessary, they are vital, that we care for one another, that we are entwined as Ephesians says, our lives together. But let me just give you an example, I go up and ask somebody, I go up to So-and-so's dad, and I understand that maybe one of their kids has been disciplined, going through problems. So I go up, and I say, "You know, I've really been praying for So-and-so. How's he doing? Are things going better?" "Yes, seems to be a lot better, better attitude and a sobriety there." And you go, "Praise God! That is exciting. Is there anything I can do to help? Is there anything we can contribute?" "No, not right now." "Well, praise God!" And you go your way. That is great!

"How's So-and-so doing?" "Well, he's doing better, attitude is better, seems to be sober." "Well, that is good to hear, but So-and-so told me that they saw them..." Now, that is not the right way. So that is the difference of how we should deal with these things.

PASTOR LAROCK: "You going to get him to cut his hair?"

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. Yes.

PASTOR LAROCK: You mentioned that this morning.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. Yes. You know, and I am glad--"Oh, praise God, brother. When are you going to get him to have that haircut and take that earring out?" That is not part of the conversation. So those are the differences of what is proper and what is not proper in how we are relating. Does that help some?

We are involved; we do care and all of these things. But it is so important that we keep it in an area that is edifying, that is left in the sphere, again, of the authority right there. I don't need to be telling that dad that I don't like the length of his son's hair. "Well, how come he doesn't make his kid cut his hair?" Well, that is not any of your business. What are you doing? Why do you have to say that to this person? See, these are not things that are edifying, and that is what we need to address.

Any other questions? Yes, we have a few here. One, two, three. Oh, I am sorry. Yes.

WOMAN IN CONGREGATION #2: You made a statement this morning about the grapevine aspect, of information passing on. I think I have a pretty good grasp of, you know, not representing anything that you may know about someone in a negative light or maybe a personal confidence that someone has entrusted to you that you don't share that. But I believe, if I remember correctly, you made a comment just that sometimes we as a congregation kind of know what you're doing before you even know, and that you thought about making up a rumor. Can you just clarify the distinction when we are sharing information? Because sometimes this happens a lot, where you think it is a good report about someone, something is happening in someone's life, and you think you're just passing on information. Like for your schedule, sometimes people will say, "Gee, Pastor's away. Do you know where he went?" And I'll say, "No. I don't have a clue. I just know they announced from the pulpit...."

PASTOR SCOTT: Right.

WOMAN IN CONGREGATION #2: "...that he's gone for a week." Then, maybe in another conversation, somebody will say, "Well, I think Pastor went out to the West coast." And I'll say, "Well, I don't know. I did not hear." Can you just kind of clarify the distinction between the grapevine maybe passing along good news?

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. Even the grapevine, passing along just information, "Where'd Pastor go?" "I don't know. I think they went out to Lake Tahoe." "Oh yes, this is the time of year that they go out there a lot." "Let's pray for him that he doesn't crash into a tree." Those would be things, there's nothing wrong with any of that. It is whenever somebody begins to put in their judgments about what should or shouldn't be or whatever, that is when we get into trouble. You know, the just sharing of information like that is not a problem.

The thing to remember, though, that we've shared is that in the multitude of words you have to be very careful that those tendencies that so many of us have don't enter in and that is what we need to guard against. When it does, then the people involved in the conversation, if we address it, it is going to start, it'll go away. "Where's Pastor?" "Well, I think they went out. I think they went out to Tahoe." "Yes, this is the time of year that they do that. Man, they've been doing that a lot of years, you know." "And when is it that they go to Disney World?" "Well, I think it is on Hailey's birthday, in October?" "Well, they sure seem to be going on a lot of vacations lately." "Yes, what do you think?" Once we cross over that, those lines, then we've got a problem.

So, just generically talking about what is and what isn't occurring, that is not necessarily always a problem. We all know our own heart motive. I am trying to remember the other part of your conversation. I think the sharing of good reports, those things, that is great. Anything that edifies, anything that builds up, that glorifies God, that is stuff that we should be, as we shared in Malachi, speaking to one another--about the kingdom of God and the power of God, as we saw in Psalms. Those are the things that we can never go wrong talking about. The good things--"Man, I've seen such a change in So-and-so's life." "Yes, it is about time." Well, now we've got a problem. Those are the little things that we have to guard against that are so important as we are addressing the more major things.

I think over here, yes.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #3: The statement that you made earlier was that if you're not part of the problem or part of the solution, then it not your business, or something to that effect. Let's say that the grapevine is in effect and it is gossip getting around. A lot of times, if it comes to me, I'll want to say, "Well, first of all, we don't need to be talking about that." But then I don't just leave it at that. I feel like I have a responsibility then to basically chase it back down the gossip vine and say, "That was gossip. You gossiped to that person" until it gets to the point where you find the one who started this gossip. "If you have a problem with this person, then you need to go to them." Because, if it really is a sin or a problem that this person is having, instead of talking to that person like the Bible says we should, they go and talk to somebody else. My question is, are we just supposed to drop it, then, if we hear the gossip, or are we supposed to go back down the gossip trail until we say, "Did you talk to this person personally? If you did not then you need to."

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. You can't ever go wrong in bringing things to the light. If our motive is to bring something to light and to bring edification, then when we see a brother who sinned or trespassed that is slandering another person, we are going to go to them and say, "Look, what you're doing here is talebearing. You need to go talk to So-and-so. You're telling people that he did this to you. Have you gone to him?" "Well, no." "Then start there, because what you're doing here is talebearing and slander, and that is sin." This is where the proof and the rebuke and the instruction to righteousness comes in. That is what the Word of God is for. That is why He has given us the Matthew format for solving these particular issues. It is very clear, so you're never wrong doing that.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #4: Yes, I may have a hard time putting this into a question form, because I think there are so many facets to it. I feel like I need a diagram or something. But first of all, I am wrestling with the "if you're not a part of the problem or part of the solution, then stay out of it" quote because there are times where I might go to my wife and I am seeking advice. I leave people's names out of it, and I am very clear to try to keep people in the best light, and I am looking for advice on how to handle something that I saw. So I was not necessarily part of the problem or the solution, but I want to be a part of it. And it might not necessarily be sin, and that is part of the question, is whether it was sin. So I am seeking that.

Then there are times where--and I am not a hothead--but there are times when I might spout off about something, and it was not even necessarily be gossip, but it reveals something in my heart that needs to be addressed. I don't think there's going to be a big repercussion on this, but some people might say, "Well, okay, I am not going to talk about that because that would be gossip." But then they are keeping everything inside, and they are no better off because they are just not dealing with anything. Whereas sometimes, I know when I had some issue, it is like, "Well, have you asked them about it? Have you encouraged them in that area? Have you talked to someone else to get advice on how to handle it?" And, again, it helped me because I got something out and then knew what to do with it. I was not originally a part of the problem or part of the solution, but then I could be. I am using the example of me going to my wife, but it could go the other way and, again, I think there's different facets to that, but I don't know if that makes sense.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, I think I am getting part of this. As you spoke, you made the comment that if I am talking to my wife or somebody else, and I am speaking in non-descriptive, almost hypothetical terms, then I am not involving personality. So I am just saying, "What would you do in a situation like this?" And if you are looking because you are aware of something and you want to become part of the solution and you want to go speak toward that, we are not defaming anybody. We are not involving specific individuals, so therefore, we are not really involved in that aspect that Jesus was addressing. If it is me going to my spouse or her coming to me, to the degree that there's an involvement, that makes us part. If somehow I am part of the situation, and I am seeking counsel within my oneness or somebody that is in authority, I am still not crossing over that demarcation line of personal expression.

We have to trace it back to what it is. It is discontentment; it is pride; it is fear. Those all become the motives for us getting and saying and judging and speaking our discontentment as we criticize somebody else's benefits or blessings or express our displeasure of the way somebody dresses, because my conscience is law. We don't have license to do any of those, but we haven't crossed that line in part of what you're saying here, if I am hearing you properly. Did you guys have an observation on that? Am I responding correctly?

MAN IN CONGREGATION #4: Yes. I don't know about everybody else, but I guess part of what I am trying to portray is that I guess the way I handle situations is to run the gamut, everything from I know I am being discrete and I am being caring and I am getting information to just spouting off. So let me use your example of the third cruise. Rather than just, "Hey, did you know they are going on their third cruise?" I say, "I can't believe they are going on their third cruise!"

PASTOR SCOTT: Right.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #4: Then my wife says to me, "Okay, this is clearly bothering you. Why is it bothering you?" So again, I was not seeking advice or input, but now somebody is speaking into my life so that I can look at my motives and the fact that they may be missing too much service or maybe I miss having them around for fellowship. But then I can speak to it. Whereas, if I had thought, "I can't believe they are going on their third cruise!" But instead, I say to my wife, "I can't believe it is still snowing," now I am not dealing with anything. She's not speaking into my life, and I just kept it inside.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #4: Whereas if I just spout off, she can say something to me and we can deal with it.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, most of us aren't capable of doing that, because out of the abundance of a heart the mouth will speak. What you want is a wife that will respond the way you shared, "It is obvious this is bothering you. What is it about it that is bothering you?" Our first response will usually be very noble--"Well, I am just very concerned about their spiritual welfare." "Well, that doesn't seem to correlate with all of these other problems you're having." Thank God for people that live with us that really know what we are about. They can address these things. Where we get into trouble is when the conversation just goes on and there's not an addressing of, "You know there's something here that you're dealing with and that is not your role." Once that is addressed, we are getting to a solution of this thing, and that is what we are looking for.

PASTOR LAROCK: I was thinking too, that if you do spout off like that, a lot of times spouting off is just venting of your flesh. When I have spouted off before sometimes, I look back and I think that was my own flesh, my own discontentment, my own pride and arrogance. That was just kind of like an infection, and you just popped it, and there was all this ugly nasty stuff. It is not always that way, but a lot of times it is. So I think that once that is exposed--and what I am thinking of is like as the head of my house--if I've gotten that stuff on someone else, now I could have sown some things into them that were in me, that weren't even in them. So now they are thinking, "Yes, why are they going on that third cruise?" So now your discontentment and your judgmental spirit and criticism has gone to another person and could be damaging to them. So if you do spout and then you see what your spouting was, then you have a responsibility to go to the person that you spouted to and say, "You know, the Lord's really shown me what that was all about in my life, and I've repented and asked Him to forgive me of that discontentment and that pride. I just thank you for speaking into my life on that occasion." Try to get it back off of them, so that it doesn't result in that destruction that you were talking about this morning that those words can bring about.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right. That is a very important part of what we are trying to address, because these words are powerful. If you start sowing things and thoughts that people never even had, then now they are dealing with something in their life that they are having to address. And now they are saying it to somebody else, and that is why we have to be very careful about our words. And we also have to watch our motives. "Is there a problem? Am I seeking to be free in myself? Am I looking for clarification, because I know I have a tendency to be critical or judgmental?"

Many times, then, we would need to be very selective--"Well, I just go to my best friend." Your best friend is your spouse if you're married. Okay. These areas where we are trying to get clarification or healing or edification in ourselves or deal with our own issues, your spouse is where you start, your deacon is where you start, not your best friend. So these are things, too, that I think are very important to see how it relates. Those are both areas that can be safe. There are a lot of twists to this, but we need to keep the basic principles at hand, and it will keep us from getting confused. Was there another hand? Yes.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #5: You've probably already addressed this, but I was just needing a little more clarification. You used an example of--I'll just draw up an example. Say I am talking with John and asking him how he's doing, how he's feeling. He shares with me maybe some specifics, the physical trial. He might tell me he's feeling stronger and the Lord has given him strength. Then we are done. Then maybe a couple days later, someone in the fellowship says, "I saw you talking to John the other day. So how's he doing?" And I am thinking it was edification: the things that I would share would just be what he had shared with me, and it would be edifying. But maybe not. Maybe I should say, "Well, go talk to John." Maybe you could help me out on that.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes, in areas again that would be edifying--let's say I was talking to John, and John said he's feeling a lot better and God has really been dealing in his life and spending more time in prayer and the Lord has delivered him from eating 12 pizzas down at Don Corleone's. And I am saying that to say this. If we are speaking and quoting what was spoken, there's nothing wrong with that. We are speaking in a way that we are conveying the conversation about what God has done, what is good in his life, that he shared in his testimony. Praise God! That is something that was not spoken in confidence. It is just a testimony of the goodness of the Lord. We speak often one to another about the power of God, about what He's doing. See, these are good things. To reiterate that just keeps the edification going. So those are areas that are edifying. They are for the purpose of showing the power of God, and those are things we want to be talking about. So I think that is important. Anybody? Does that help you? Okay, good.

Any others? We'll take a couple more if there are any other questions. Go ahead.

MAN IN CONGREGATION #6: Okay, so I was kind of thinking of how I was going to ask this question to best represent this completely hypothetical scenario. Say I have a friend who comes to me, a close friend, somebody who I sow into their life and they sow into my life, and they are making an observation and say, "Looks like you're doing this." They are trying to give me counsel on how to maybe solve that problem. I ask them, "What makes you think that this is a problem? What gives you that idea?" They say, "Well, I was talking to So-and-so, and they said they saw you during this here party," or whatever. So they got the information by--maybe they did not realize it, but it would seem to me that some gossip was going on. So, now I want to address the fact that there was gossip and tell them, "You know, if that person has a problem with me, then go tell them to tell me about it, not to tell you about it." But I am very interested in if there is actually a problem, like there is something in my character that I need to fix. I also want to talk to them about it, to my friend, the person who came to tell me about it so that I can get counsel from them to get it fixed. So, how would I respond to my friend who has, talked to somebody who noticed that maybe I was doing something or there was a problem so that I could address the gossip but still get counsel from them, if that is what needs to happen?

PASTOR SCOTT: Ah, to help with this totally hypothetical situation, the two ways would be to respond initially and say, "Well, there are two things that we need to address here. First of all, do you see that? What are you seeing in my life?" "Well, I do see that." "Well, then I want to speak more about that. If it is a problem, I want it addressed. We can share. You are a friend, and I'd like you to make some observations that will help me. We need to talk about that specifically. We have an opportunity now. Maybe we'll do it now; maybe we need to do it later. But in addition to that, you need to go back to that person and ask them why they haven't addressed me, because I haven't heard it from them." Share with them where they have trespassed, and they need to come and make that thing right. So that would be the way to handle that specific situation.

Most of us don't want to be involved in those kind of things. We get involved many times. The more people begin to address us, bring that to light, the less apt we are to do it. So those are things that we can't just let them slide. You think, "Well, that is only one time." But maybe it was just one time that you're aware of. This could be the sixth or seventh incident, and that person still has not been addressed. So the fact that we think we are going to be gracious and let it slide, we may be doing harm. In fact, we are always doing harm when we don't bring the reproof and rebuke in these areas that the Scripture mandates. It is the thing that so many times appears to be so innocent, the spirit of diablos, "the slanderer, the accuser of the brethren" that we can't have in our midst. It all started with this same being, Satan, accusing Father to Eve. "He doesn't care. He's not treating you right." That is the spirit, and there's no place for it. We have to understand what its source is, and I think that is very important.

Any others? No more. Any last comments that any of you all might have? I think it is a real practical subject we've been on. It is very important that we understand the magnitude of it. I know many of have spoken toward that. We just need to be very conscious of it. I think it will do us good. Read the James passage. Spend a little bit of time meditating there and see the power of words and the tongue. We definitely have not overemphasized the danger that we are talking about here, in casual idle words that don't speak toward edifying. We are going to stand in judgment for every idle word. "Idle" meaning "non-edifying, non-productive, it doesn't accomplish." "Idle" being that which brings the opposite, the negative, that diminishes the body. So those are things that I think are important for us to be aware of. Hopefully, we can get some of these areas addressed. If everything goes well, after the teaching, we'll never have problems with this again. Hallelujah. Most likely, somebody will be gossiping about the gossip teaching by tomorrow. So if you happen to be part of it, address it. We'll speak toward edifying.

Father, we thank You for Your Word in our lives, and we understand that with all that makes us strong, we have to deal with those other areas that are dangerous. Our intimacy, our love, our care, our involvement in one another's lives that is so vital and so important for building the body of Christ, the unity, the community, the care one for another, the mutual preferring and lifting up of hands--all of that is so good and so necessary. It brings with it this other danger, Father. We just ask that we'd guard against it, give no place to it, be children of light, be salt that preserves and purifies and gives a good flavor, care enough to bring about restitution, that You would be glorified, that we would seek to speak grace, speak of Your power, speak of Your great kingdom, and give no place to the enemy. Father, let it be our guard. We are watchmen upon this wall. We are going to watch that Your Spirit alone orders our steps and our conversation, in Jesus' name, amen.

Before you go, turn to somebody and say, "I am putting a watch over my mouth." Amen. Go in peace. God's love go with you.

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