Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Panel Discussion

[We're going to discuss] the basic premise that we were dealing with a couple of sessions ago. We were asking ourselves what we're doing to possess our vessels and keep ourselves pure in the midst of this crooked and perverse generation, the end times, the days that we're living in, when iniquity is abounding and the love of many is waxing cold. False doctrines are going around in many churches today, allowing a more liberal and promiscuous type of a lifestyle, rather than seeking holiness and living lives that are separate from the world's system--you know, being identifiable. What are we doing to protect ourselves, men, as God's messengers and priests in making a covenant with our eyes (as the Scripture says) that we wouldn't think upon a maid? What are we doing to make sure that we're delighting in our spouses and loving our wives? Are we satisfied with the gifts that God has given us, and not all of these false images that are being constantly thrown before us to try to seduce us? They tell us, "Here's the proper look; this is what will make you happy; this is what's sexy; this is what you need in your life," and all those lies. We're to be content and thankful for what God has given us and to be satisfied with the relationship that we have there. What are we doing with that?

Ladies, what are you doing to protect your husbands from this prey? Because the strange woman is out there after your husband--not just because he's such a catch, but because there's a war between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light. If they can bring your husband down, it brings a reproach on the kingdom. It brings a schism in your household and breaks up the body of Christ. So, what are you doing? There are messengers that Satan's sending out there to flatter your husbands, to take them with their eyes, the Scripture says. What are you doing to combat that? What are you doing to flatter your husbands? What are you doing to seduce your husbands and to make sure that you're constantly the one that they're looking to, and looking for, and all of the different practical things that we addressed?

We addressed the gaze versus the glance, and how we have to protect ourselves there. There is a distinction, but we can't justify either one; it's dangerous. You can't take fire in your bosom and not be burned, the Scripture says. We talked about fleeing youthful lusts, giving no place to the devil, shunning the very appearance of evil, and all of the principles that are at hand as it pertains to that subject matter. Concerning marriage, we talked about the sanctity, the privilege, and the plan of God. We ended on that in making sure that we're finding the right life's mate and what the requirements are there. We talked about the responsibilities that we have toward one another in the marriage union--emotionally and physically. We talked then about divorce. We saw that the Lord does hate the putting away, but there is the escape clause and permission because of adultery. But it was not so from the beginning. It was given because of the hardness of the hearts of men. That's kind of a summary of where we've been in these last couple of sessions.

I heard good reports about the Home Fellowship Group meetings. A number were emphasizing the salt aspect in the teaching [on the Sermon on the Mount], and I heard a lot of great testimonies on evangelism. Some of the others, I know, were talking about the gossip teaching that has been a blessing and a ministry to them. The Lord's been practically addressing these things in this hour that we're going into. Why are we teaching this? Because it's a tabloid society. It's all about gossip. It's all about more information. It's all about these titillating stories, and we're not to be caught up in all of that. We talked about busybodyness versus slander. It's been a practical teaching.

In the next session, we're going into the subject of vengeance and a study on our heart attitude as to how we respond when things aren't going our way, many times because of persecution for righteousness' sake.

We did get a couple of questions, and I'm going to address some of those. We'll also see if there are any more that you want to address tonight. But before we do, do any of you guys want to comment on the last couple of sessions that we had on the divorce issue? This seemed to be one of the things the Lord was speaking to us this morning. It even had to do with a lot of you singles--what to consider and how to prepare yourselves so that you don't end up with this temptation of divorce and sedition. So, we're trusting that Father was able to speak to hearts there. Did anybody here have anything that you wanted to say along this subject before we go on?

PASTOR LAROCK: I want to comment just on the subject of guarding our eyes and how important it is to really be circumspect about that. We can allow ourselves a certain liberty--whether it be in movies, or the liberty to take an extra look, or things like that--and think, "Well, I did that, and nothing happened. I didn't get into sexual sin. I'm still good." The way it works is just by an erosion, a little bit at a time, and you get weaker and weaker. I just want to admonish everyone to not give place to the little things, where maybe there's no immediate consequence that you see. But you become weaker and weaker, and you become more and more--I guess we use the term "desensitized" a lot. There are things that we choose to expose ourselves to, but there's a lot that we're exposed to that we really don't have a whole lot of choice about. For example, you went to the grocery store, and you didn't even mean to check all that stuff out. I mean, you looked just because you were checking out your surroundings, and there it is! Or you're watching a football game on TV, and it wasn't your intention to observe commercials of women lying around with not very many clothes on and doing seductive things. I was in the gym the other day, and they had on this TV station (VH-1 I think it was; it's like MTV). It was 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning, and it was pornographic! I mean, it wasn't nudity, but it was just seduction. That's not what I went there for, but I'm looking up there and seeing Sports Center, and Martha Stewart, and then I'm looking at pornography without even trying!

I'm just saying there's so much that's put before you that you didn't invite in, so we don't want to invite any stuff in. We want to be careful about what we allow our eyes to look upon and what we allow our thoughts to go upon. Again, it's subtle. You can think, "I did that, and I got a quick little thrill out of that; but I didn't fall, so I'm still okay." It erodes a little bit at a time, and you can become more and more liberal in what you allow. And before you know it, you're flirting a little bit and going beyond what you should be doing there. You didn't fall there, and then... In other words, it's a progressive thing, and we just want to guard ourselves. This is a warning especially to the young people. Adults, you may all say, "Yes, I know what you're talking about, and maybe I need to sharpen up on that." Maybe you're already staying sharp. But I'm speaking to young people especially, because you're naïve and simple in the ways that the enemy works. You don't realize what he's doing to you by just that little step at a time. Yes, you can do this, and take this liberty, and that didn't kill you. Proverbs, Chapter 7, describes the simpleton, the one who was lacking understanding. He just goes a little bit further, and a little bit further, and a little bit further. And then, "Wow! Where did this dart come from that's in my liver?" So, this is just a warning about keeping our eyes, keeping our ears, and keeping our thoughts pure.

PASTOR SCOTT: That's all just good, practical advice. Who is that simple person? You use that word "simple," and people get offended by that. But I've found out that the simple one (the one that's speaking to) is the one who doesn't think he is. The simple ones are the ones who you can't ever convince that they're simple. It's tragic how that works. Those who have been burned, and those of you who have had these experiences, you begin to realize the dangers, and you begin to guard yourself, and you're careful. You've not only seen it in the Scriptures, but you see it again and again over the years. So many times, too, it's new converts. They say, "Man, I'm saved! Praise God, I'd never do that! I'm free from that!" They're moving in the realm of a gift of grace that carries you early on in your experience. Eventually, God (in His love and mercy) doesn't continue to carry us on that wave, but He allows us to begin to be sanctified and purged. There's a growth process. There are mistakes made, and repentances, and determinations, and setting our face, and all of the things that are principles of growth. It's funny how many times, then, that can turn into a doctrine. But the Scripture talks about how the mighty have fallen in these things. You see (whether it's a Samson or whether it's a David) the dangers in not guarding ourselves and hearing the voice of our father, Adam, instead of the voice of God. These are things that are very important for you young people. Listen to your counselors. Listen to the experienced, those who are your instructors.

As Chuck was saying to us here, in so many of these cases you think, "Well, I got away with that." But what you don't realize is that you're beginning to set a habit, a pattern, that's going to come back and get you. It's going to take over your life, one bad choice at a time. And it gets its power over you when it becomes habitual. You do it and you get away, and you do it and get away, and you do it and get away. The next thing you know, it's so natural that now it's got power over you, and you're going to have to go to some extreme measures to break that power again, to set yourself free. If you're under the power of something like that, have your wife (or some close friend) say, "You did it," every time they catch you, to where you're checked by it; because it can become so natural that, at times, people don't even know. Set yourself up to where you can get free, to where you can walk free from the power of any of these things that are controlling your life.

I think those are some practical things that you might do that can be advantageous to you. If you know that friends or loved ones are in a situation like this, remember that things that might be lawful for you--the strong are to bear the infirmity of the weak. "No, we don't need to watch that. We don't need to go there. For your good, we don't need to partake of that." It's not, "Because you're so weak!" It's because this is how we build one another up and protect one another. I think those are some things that would be helpful.

Are there any other comments along these lines? Are there any questions on this particular aspect of what we were talking about--the guarding of your eyes, the help of a spouse, or those that are around us, to help in these different areas? I think, as I said before, it's amazing. I've heard this numerous times, and it's always from young believers. "I don't know why there's such a big deal made out of this. You just trust God!" I've been trusting God for forty years, and I've seen a lot of people fall. And they were a lot better people than most of those who are questioning. So, be careful. Are there any questions along these lines at all?

MAN IN CONGREGATION #1: Along that line, I believe that yesterday [at the Men's Breakfast] you mentioned something about making ourselves accountable to our spouses, and you've mentioned it again this morning. It was something relative to--I believe you said "accountable for our lusts" or "accountable for our sexuality." Can you elaborate on that?

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. We know that men are visually stimulated. I said that in some of these areas, if we would communicate at the different times when we're battling--because sometimes one is up, and the other one sustains them; and then the other one is up, and the other one sustains them. In all of our lives, we're spiraling in our walk and in our growth. When there are areas that you might be battling, you can go to your wife and say, "Hey, you know, I'd like you to pray with me. For some reason, and I don't know what it is, I've just been battling this situation." It can happen like that. Chuck was talking about the football game. You're watching, and the next thing you know (you're not in charge of the mixer), the guy flashes over to this cheerleader. Then this image comes into your mind, and boom! These are darts that are being hurled. That can happen a hundred times, and ninety-nine of the times it doesn't affect you. But one time it's like, boom! And the next thing you know, your thought goes a different direction. Then all of a sudden, you find yourself in a day or two, and there's something else. Satan's after you, man! Something else occurs, or somebody at work does this, or whatever--and you can feel this. Don't be afraid to go to your wife and say, "I'm battling! I'm at war right now in this area. Pray for me. If you see something that can help me, speak toward it."

One thing I've done with myself and my wives over all of these years is this. When cable TV and the Internet came out, we not only had filters, but we split the numbers in the codes so that no one person could get access. "Why, Pastor?" It's called wisdom. It's called safety. Your wife can help you by having those three out of six numbers in the code, so that you can't just go and do whatever you want to do without accountability in different areas. I would surely have that for my children. If this is something that offends you, and you say, "I'm more in control of my life than that!" then maybe you're one of those simple ones. Maybe you're not all you think you are. So, all I'm saying is, it only takes one time, man, and it's not worth it. Those are some of the ways you can become accountable. Open up. Tell them, "I'm battling this right now. Let's see if we can set up some things here to where we can protect one another."

With men, we've shared, it's a visual thing. For you women, some of the programs that you're watching are nothing more than glorified soap operas with different twists to them. They contain ideas about romance and relationships; they have love stories, and these ideas get in. "Well, my husband's not as romantic as that guy," and "I didn't get those flowers." All these thoughts are building up, so we have women who are being distracted by romance and the knight in shining armor. Guys are looking at women that have been air brushed, and women are looking at men that have been invented! Most of us aren't that cool. There's only a handful of us around! Women are being thrown all of these images, so I'm just saying, let's protect each other. I was speaking to the men about accountability in these areas; but so many of us are afraid that if we do that, we're going to be rejected, or we're going to be thought of as not being spiritual, or whatever else.

That's kind of what I was speaking toward. Hopefully that's helped. Does that answer your question? Does anybody else have any comments on that? Are there any other questions along these lines?

I'd sure rather be safe. That stuff's dangerous out there, man! You all know about the Internet. I hate the Internet! That thing sucks so much of people's time. We talked about it yesterday, and it's so dangerous. You sit around and get totally unnecessary information. We can find out anything we want to know now, and it becomes entertainment to us. It can be a distraction, and it can turn into offenses if we're not careful. So, be careful! That's all we're saying. When your kids have that filter, and you have the code, and you open it up, don't just walk off and leave them with the thing! Check back. Ask them what they're looking at. It's just a dangerous world we're living in.

Are there any other questions--not necessarily on that, but about the teaching that we've done up to this point on the subject matters of relationships, divorce, or whatever?

Oh, here's an interesting news article somebody handed me this morning. It says, "It's not the brief nude scene in M-Butterfly (a drama about a twenty-year affair between a French diplomat and a beautiful Chinese spy) that makes this story notable. It's that the performance was in a church." So, we've got a play in a church with nudity in it! Are we going downhill? I think that's interesting. (Some of you are saying, "Well, what church is that?") Here we are in church with nude scenes portraying dramas of some type. I mean, what in the world...? You've got rock concerts and all of these things. And that's part of the spirit that we're dealing with.

Here's a good question. How should men handle the emotional part of their wives going through menopause? I told Chuck in the back, "This is an easy one--with kid gloves and a Kevlar vest!"

You know, that's part of life to look forward to, isn't it? If the Lord tarries, some of you young men are in for a ride you cannot imagine! It's where we live, and (seriously now) we need to realize that this is a cycle in life. It does bring with it some great opportunities for both of you, not only to learn patience, but also to trust God and to pray. It does not have to have the effects that some women experience. I believe that, by grace and faith, we can stand together and pray and battle in that area. This is a chemical thing, and if you can adjust some chemicals and make things go better, then that's wisdom. It's just like anything else from the natural that would give us a greater opportunity to use our faith and to build our faith. If something can provide balance and allow us to be rational, to study, and to pray, it will cause a supernatural effect. So, don't panic. Men, if you're involved in things like this, don't take things personally. It's not personal; again, it's a chemical response. As you get to know people, too, there can be those who try to play it for all it's worth. It can become an excuse for a lack of discipline. If that's the case, then this needs to be identified and addressed also.

First of all, when you come to that place, most likely you've spent a lot of years together. You've been through a lot of things, and this is just another one. Thank God for the journey. Thank God for the opportunity to be there for your wife at that time. They don't want to do some of the things they're doing. These are all areas where they're going to need your understanding and patience. So, those are some of the things--just identify it, understand that it's natural, and understand that it's not something that others haven't been through. It can give you a time to build character.

Do you guys have any comments?

PASTOR LAROCK: I think a lot of the counsel that you've given over the years for relationships in general--it's just a time to apply those a lot more often. You know, like listening, for example. It's an opportunity for guys to just listen and not try to solve the problem. If your wife's going through that, and she's just crying about stuff that she doesn't even know what she's crying about, don't try to solve the problem and say, "Well, you know, honey, you can just do this and that, and it's not a big deal." Just let her bawl and cry, and let her tell you what's bothering her. I haven't gone through that yet, but it seems like it could be handled with just those kind of things: to be supportive, to realize that a lot of the emotions are very extreme, irrational, and ...

PASTOR SCOTT: The word "insane" comes to mind. We're just thinking of terms!

PASTOR LAROCK: Yes. So, just be supportive, be a good listener, and those kinds of things.

PASTOR SCOTT: It's an area of just encouragement. Guys want to solve it, and they can get so frustrated. Your wife's just crying. "What's wrong?" "I don't know what's wrong." "Well, there's got to be something wrong. I mean, you don't just cry for nothing, for crying out loud! What do you want me to do?" "I don't want you to do anything." "I'm out of here, man." Just cry with her! You can both have a good cry and then go out and have dinner or something! Realize, as I said, that it's a chemical thing. So, don't try to make it other than what it is, and I think things will be better.

Steve, were you going to share something?

PASTOR GARDNER: I was going to ask you a question, and I was going to make one comment. You know, really--and this is not to be funny or anything--but you've already had (depending on how long you've been married to this individual) many years of a small introduction to this. I can tell you that for the period of time that Dawn and I have been married, she's let me know what that would be like. And we've never had any trouble with that. She's cried at times...

PASTOR SCOTT: Schedule your business trips!

PASTOR GARDNER: Yes, or take a long trip to Africa! No, this is the question I was going to ask, and this isn't to be funny either. How long does that last, the menopause in a woman?

PASTOR SCOTT: Well, it all differs--the severity of it, the time it begins, and the duration of it. Some of you are possibly going to deal with a decade of this. I think that's why men are like they are! No, seriously, the severity of it will go up and down. And there are drugs now. Just drug them! The key is that we should really be able to be about Father's business. And, like with anything else, I think we should do whatever we can to maintain that. But it's going to be a process; it will be a period of time. So, just live with irrational responses, crying for no reason, and hot flashes. Just consider it normal, and you'll be fine. Some of you guys are thinking, "Dear God! I think I'm going to be like Paul!" That's something that we can look at.

We'll go on; that's our menopause question for the night. If you need any more information than that, ask Dottie; she's a nurse. Are there any other questions on any of the subjects at this point?

What other questions do we have here? Oh, this was just someone asking us to elaborate a little more on 1 Corinthians 7, verse 8. "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they [can to] abide even as I." Paul is speaking there, and he's basically making reference to the principle that we've studied many times. When we're single, and we can commit ourselves totally to the Lord, we can get a lot more done. The widows that are widows indeed, and are of the acceptable age, and are taken care of by the community, are able to contribute in different areas, and their lives are given wholly to the Lord. But when we have a husband or wife, we're responsible to take care of those needs. So, what Paul's saying there--possibly at this juncture he could have been a widower and saying, "This is something that I'm able now to give myself wholly to; but I do have the right to take a wife." As you read on in the next chapter, you see this authority. He may have been a widower at this time (I don't know), but it appears that Paul was alone. He was saying, "If it's possible, stay this way. You can get a lot more done for the kingdom. But if not, then marry, and marry in the Lord," as he goes on in the chapter and clarifies. That would be the obvious of what he's stating there. Any comments on that chapter?

PASTOR LAROCK: Yes, and the verse just before that talks about each one having his own gift, one after this manner, and another after that. So you either have the gift of being single and of being able to stay single, or you have the gift of a spouse. Both are the Lord's gifting.

PASTOR SCOTT: That's right. There are some who find themselves as widows or widowers. Time goes on, and they find another life's mate and live out the rest of their lives together and can be very productive. I'm thinking of like someone like Jerry Bridges. He talks a lot about the difference between his first wife and his current wife. As his first wife went home to be with the Lord, he talks about how God's given him this gift that he's experiencing in his second wife. He talks about the difference between the two, and yet, how productive each was for the kingdom. He could have stayed alone, and he's made reference to that in some of his testimony. But he didn't have that gift, and God brought that person who actually even caused his life to come to the place where he is today. So, it's not like there's a nobility in remaining single, but it's about establishing the call and the gift and walking that out in obedience.

Are there any other questions along any of the subjects that we've introduced so far? I'll give you guys just a second.

We talked a lot this morning to some of you young singles about making sure of what you are to look for in a life's mate, and that's those who are seeking first the kingdom of God. Don't take lightly the covenant that's going to be cut. At the same time, don't move in fear either, because two who are walking and pursuing with all of their hearts, striving for the mastery--you hook up, and you're going to be able to compound your effectiveness for the kingdom. And that's what we're looking for.

PASTOR LAROCK: One of the young people not long ago in our Bible class asked a question that I thought was a good one. It just came to mind, and it might be helpful to address it. The question was about not kindling a fire, as it says in 1 Corinthians 7, it's good for a man not to touch a woman. It's good for a man not to stir passions; and, of course, this is from the standpoint of either gender. Let's say there are a couple of single young adults, and there's an interest in one another. There's going to be an emotional kind of an interest and an excitement about being around that person, which naturally can go into romantic thoughts and things like that. So, he was asking, "How do you express an interest in someone, and yet guard yourself from stirring up those passions? Is it okay that I have an interest or an excitement when I'm talking to this person?" In a nutshell, the answer that I gave was this. Guard your motive to make sure you don't do anything to intentionally stir things. Then also be mindful of things you do that you may not do with an intention to stir things, but realize that other people are affected in a way that's different from how you're affected. Take, for example, (and Pastor, you've talked about this before) girls in the way they dress. They may just think something is really cute, and there's nothing wrong with it. Their motive wasn't to be seductive or to entice in an ungodly way, but it can have that effect. So, those are some of the things I mentioned, but I thought that was a good question.

PASTOR SCOTT: I think some of it has to do with what we shared this morning, too, on the three aspects of love and how we prioritize them. When you're around them, how do you show you're interested in them? It's by doing spiritual things with them. Get together and witness, and pray, and fellowship around those spiritual things that are not kindling these passions. They're kindling spiritual growth in fellowship (koinonea), a commonness, a friendship. In the midst of that, then, you begin to phileo, and you begin to share that friendship, that brotherly love, and that communion that's there. And should that turn into this person being someone who would be a life's mate, at that time we can make the proclamation of that covenant, and that's when the eros begins. That's when the affection is there, and you can tell that person (after you've cut covenant and you're espoused) that you love them, and they've got little beady eyes like a dove (and these other things from Song of Solomon!). I think when it's in that order, it's obvious that there's an attraction, a commonness. You're getting to know them, but you're getting to know them in the right order.

Jeff, I know you guys had a good meeting the other day with the young adults. I think you addressed some of these same issues. You said that the question was asked, "Is it okay to refer to somebody as hot or sexy?"

PASTOR LAROCK: Some of the parents mentioned that sometimes the young people (youth and young adults) say--not to the person, but amongst themselves--"He's hot" or "She's sexy," and those kinds of things.

PASTOR SCOTT: You shouldn't be talking about your pastor that way! These things that we say casually or kidding around, "Yeah, he's hot; she's hot; hey, sexy!" There's no reason to be talking about those things. These things so often are the little foxes, those things that you give place to that are harmless based upon the motive. They're harmless once, but at what place does it incite? You might be free, but you're bringing somebody else into a stumbling position when you're referring to your friend as, "Oh, so-and-so is sexy," or "So-and-so is hot," or whatever. We just need to guard ourselves. We don't need to refer to one another in that way unless it's our spouses. If it's your spouse, you need to start referring to one another that way. It might have been a long time for you, so build up to it!

PASTOR HEGLUND: Something that we don't always think about (we end up talking about it a lot with the youth and young adults) is that you really get in trouble when you're throwing those comments out there in your text messages, e-mails, instant messaging, or whatever; because they can't tell if you're kidding or not. I don't hear those comments, and if I ever did, it would be in a very joking way. For instance, somebody just blew their nose, and someone else says, "That's really sexy" or something (which isn't good either). But sometimes you can shoot out a text message, and think you're kidding around, but someone interprets it wrong. I've tried to tell people that some of our lousier incidents around here started that way, just because you can't hear the inflexion, or see what's going on, and people misunderstand. That goes back to Chuck's question in the Bible class, to where fires can get kindled that we don't think about. Girls don't think about the way they dress. For guys, let's say you've just spent two hours at a basketball game, then you went out to eat for two hours, then it's one or two o'clock in the morning on Friday night, and you're sending somebody an email. It doesn't really matter what the content of that e-mail is, it gives that person attention, and just that attention can be something that will kindle a fire. You're a guy, and you're saying, "Hey, what's going on?" "Oh, it's okay. I do that with all the girls." Well, that might be fine for you, but you don't know what kind of an effect you're having and how unnecessary that is when we get to be together so often. Is it that this stuff is innately evil? No, it's not. It's just that we don't always think about the effect we're having on other people--whether it's the way we dress, the little comments that we make, the attention that we can give through electronic media (which is dangerous for so many of those reasons).

PASTOR SCOTT: We've got some great young men here, and I'm so thankful for them. But how many of you fathers would prefer that your daughters are not with a young man alone at one o'clock in the morning? How many of you would prefer that not take place? How many of you think that's fine? That's exactly what's happening with all of that "click, click, click, click, click" stuff. Well, they're safe, because they can't touch them." I want to tell you something. This touch [a physical one] is not as dangerous as this touch {mind] or this touch [heart]. "What's the big deal? Why is Pastor Jeff always talking about text messages and all of this stuff?" That's why.

Those of us, the old fashioned people--how many of you parents can remember sitting within earshot so you could listen to your kids' phone calls? Does anybody remember doing that? I did. I knew what my kids were saying on the telephone to their friends. How many of you make sure when the kids are over that you're walking through the room constantly? You're showing up, and just passing by. That's one way to become one of the cool parents! "Hey, your dad's cool, man!" Then your kids are always like, "Oh, that's so embarrassing, Dad!" If you're one of the cool parents, you're able to have the kids over--and enjoy them! At the same time, you can help them, be there for them, and be a safety and a guide for them. That's part of this whole process of us growing up together, and those are important things.

It's not even what's said. It's the contact. I'll take you a step back even further than that, to before you got saved. How many of you old people remember this taking place with a boyfriend or girlfriend? You're on the phone, and you're lying across the bed, sitting in the kitchen with your feet up on the counter, or wherever it is, and nobody's saying anything? How many of you remember those times? What was the deal? Nobody was saying anything, but you were connected, right? That's all you needed. That's what we're talking about. It's something to guard yourself in, as Chuck was sharing earlier. These are the little things that, if they become habits, if they become power--"I'm under the power of this. I have to make that contact. I need to know what they're thinking." That's not where you need to be in relationships at this juncture. So, I think that's important.

Jeff, were you going to share something else?

PASTOR HEGLUND: Yes, just another kind of interesting comment about that. I've heard different ones say, "Well, I've been trying to be safe, and smart, and just talk with people up here, [but then they say, and they're just being honest] but I didn't want to have to take my hat back out of the ring. I know all the other guys [or all the other girls] are doing this, so I don't want to miss out on the action. And Pastor says, ‘Make sure you keep your hat in the ring.'" I could understand what they were saying, but obviously that's a bad motive if I feel like, "Man, I've got to stay plugged in electronically all the time, or I'm going to miss out on what's going on!" Certainly, we're not naïve. We know that you can make plans by text messaging and all of these things, but I think you understand what we're talking about by now. We just have to watch our motives in something like that. "I can't stop, because I don't want to miss out!" That's not really good.

PASTOR SCOTT: As Jeff is sharing, motive's the key, but goes a lot deeper than motive. Because now we're saying that everybody else's manipulation is greater than God's sovereignty. We're not trusting God anymore, and that becomes the issue even more so than the action. As we're searching our own hearts, it's always motives, and it's always the ability to trust God and His directing our lives. That's really what becomes important.

Do you guys have any other comments along these lines? Are there any other questions?

MAN IN CONGREGATION #2: Yes, Pastor. It's not really a question as much as an observation. I've noticed that we usually tend to talk about the guys noticing the girls because of the way that they're dressing. But one thing that I've noticed throughout the years is that a lot of times, the guys dress in a way that, I guess, is sexy also. The world has inundated women to start looking at guys the way guys have traditionally looked at girls. I just wanted to bring that up, because there are times when I've looked at some of the young men, and they're wearing clothes that are seductive for girls.

PASTOR SCOTT: It's a plot, and it's satanic. We're living and being forced in our society (in Europe even more so) into a unisex perspective where there is no distinction. Now we have the magazines for women that are pornographic and these different things. For a couple of decades, there's been the manipulation to try to get women to respond from what would typically be a male perspective. And they've succeeded. There's a lot of this going on, and now it's not just, "Oh, he's cute!" or whatever. That is in our society. As believers, we're not to be naïve, thinking that we haven't been vexed by that. So, we have to consider these things. Men and ladies, as you're instructing your daughters, listen to what they're saying. Be aware of what they're watching.

As [the man in the congregation] was talking, I was trying to think of who that could be. I really haven't noticed any of the guys around here looking sexy! I think that's a very good point, though, that we've seen this manipulation in the minds of the people in this way. I think that's important.

Do you guys have any observations or comments on that?

It's something for the guys to be aware of. I don't know, when you walk past Abercrombie's, if that's for the girls or the guys--those guys with their pants hanging down and whatever. I don't mean that it's a homosexual thing. But you see the guys with no shirts, and their pants are down almost too far, and guys could think they're saying, "Look like this, and the girls will look at you." I would guess that's the ploy of the advertisement, although I'm sure there are a few guys who get a little more out of it than that. If that's the case, it's drawing on those things. It's bringing out more of that sensuality that we've never had to deal with in our society until recent years. So, we need to guard against that. When we talk about the tendencies, it's not either/or. Women are sexually attracted, and they like the physiques of men as much as men like the physicality of the ladies. It's just that it's not as constant, and it's not as dominant. It's not the initial; it's consequential. So, those are things that are important.

Are there any other questions?

MAN IN CONGREGATION #3: Pastor, you just brought out the fact about the girls looking at guys in the advertisements. As a husband, I've shared this with my wife. "You know, when I married you, you were this weight." I've seen some of the people here, and over the years they've gained weight. (I'm just trying to be real honest right now.) What I'm getting at is, as a guy being tempted and bombarded as we are every day--whether you're at a supermarket or wherever you are--I've really expressed to my wife concern. I've had to be really open and honest and say, "Hey, I'm watching what I do with my body, because I want to be pleasing to you for the rest of my life." Some of the different guys or ladies here that are married, maybe when they were married they weighed 105, and now they're 295! And that's not a joke, you know; it's there. I've kind of shared with her in love, "Hey, this is one way you can really protect me, by putting a watch over yourself and really preferring the other person. Because it's very easy for me to pick up a bowl of ice cream all the time. I love all that stuff!

PASTOR SCOTT: Hallelujah!

MAN IN CONGREGATION #3: In one way, I'm protecting my wife from having to look outside of our relationship. I really determined that I'm going to put a watch over my own lips and mouth so as not to cause my wife to stumble. I really believe that if she doesn't do the same, it could help contribute to me having to look elsewhere; because there are always going to be the air brushed people. But if I married you, and this is the way you were, and then we had a couple of kids--and if you're doing everything you know to do, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about loving your spouse to the place where you die to your appetites and are real honest with yourself. Anyway, I think you can hear what I'm trying to share.

PASTOR SCOTT: Yes. I think it's very important to realize, again, what is it that attracted me to this person? The basic premise that you're coming from is good, but it goes way beyond that; because there are many things that can change the physical makeup of an individual. There are diseases; there are accidents. "If my wife stays physically attractive, is that going to help me as it pertains to lust?" In reality, the answer to that is, "No." It will affect you possibly in how you respond in lusting for her, but it isn't going to keep you from looking at others. Only the right determinations and heart attitude is going to do that. Are we saying that there shouldn't be the consideration for our spouses? We should consider them; we should try. But first of all, it's not about our spouse. It's keeping ourselves honoring the Lord with our bodies. Our bodies are not our own; they're the Lord's. Then, our bodies are not our own; they're our spouses'. If we keep that in order, I think that's the right perspective, and not just the appearance. That becomes the real, spiritual motive, and appearance goes from there. We've got to understand, again, that we're Americans, and we've got these cultural influences. Be happy! When you get over 250, go to Samoa, and you're hot, man! We've got to be careful that we don't get culturally bound in some of these different things. Do make sure that you are appealing. That's why we talked, ladies, about dressing for your husbands. And, husbands, be involved in these things. I think those are all very important aspects. As the gentleman said, as time goes on, and you have some kids, and more time goes by, things will change, and you have to work sometimes harder at it. But we don't want to limit it to that. That's the point that I want to make.

Do you guys want to comment on that?

PASTOR LAROCK: What you're saying about loving one another is just what I wanted to comment on further. You can express love for your spouse by being conscious of your physical person, and you should do that. That's an expression of love. On the other hand, you can be so caught up with what you look like physically that you're not happy. You can't ever have dessert with your husband because you might put on a few ounces. If you live together for thirty years, and you never have ice cream, that's a horrible thought, isn't it, Pastor Scott? Or should I say it this way? You never have ice cream while your husband's awake! "Who's that in the refrigerator at two o'clock in the morning?"

PASTOR SCOTT: Some people have mice; we have penguins!

PASTOR LAROCK: But anyway, the point is that a wife or a husband (either case) could be all caught up with it, and the other person might be like, "Relax; just have a piece of cake!"

PASTOR SCOTT: "No, I'm going to stay the weight I was in high school." "We're not in high school. We've been married for forty years, for crying out loud! Eat the cake!"

PASTOR LAROCK: Yes. Communicate, love one another, be sensitive to one another, and be loving. That's the thing. Prefer the other.

PASTOR SCOTT: Amen. Do you guys have any other comments?

We're talking about how the world's affecting us. Very frankly, this fitness thing and this skinny thing is horrible when it becomes an entity to itself. If you're in bondage to that thing, if it's keeping you (as Chuck shared) from being able to be involved in relationship together, and these different areas, then it's sin. So, be very careful that you don't get caught up in this. I mean, it's a sickness in the world today. Even the world sees that it's a problem; but if it's making money, they'll overlook it. But they realize it's a problem. What did you marry them for? I think that's a very, very important thing. I just want you to see that's not going to stop the lust. It could affect your personal relationship if it gets excessive, but lust is an internal problem. It's not something that "they" do. My spouse can't make me lust after somebody else; that's my problem. They can help me in prayer and being there for these different areas, but it's more than the physical. We just want to keep that clear.

I don't want to get too much further into it. We try to deal with things generally, not specifically, and as practically as we can. Are there any more questions? Going once... No more? Do you guys [the other pastors] have anything?

Hallelujah! Father, we thank You for Your love for us. And we just thank You that, as it pertains to this generation, You've spoken very clearly as to the day we're living in. People are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having forms of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Teachers are telling people what they want to hear, and we're contending with that spirit that's attacking us every day. You've called us to holiness, and You've called us to unity and community. You've called us to love one another, and to love our spouses and to help each other finish this race. So, Father, we're just asking that you would cause us to walk in the light, to identify the areas in our lives that we can improve, that we need help in, and that we can help others in, so that You could be glorified. Help us to love as we've been loved. And for that, we'll give You all the praise and all the glory, in Jesus' name. Amen.

Before you go, turn to somebody and say, "It's not good for man to be alone." Amen. Go in peace; God's love go with you.

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