Bible Teaching

Calvary Temple Teaching Library

Panel Discussion

[There was no microphone available for audience questions, so they are not included.]

PASTOR SCOTT: The subject matter that we’ve been dealing with… We’ve dealt a little bit out of the passages in Deuteronomy. We were dealing with the rapture of the church since our last panel. I’m trying to think if there’s one other area. No, I guess that that the other area was anything that you might have dealing with the ministry in Africa. We were going to open it up for that. I don’t have of all the latest news. I know that the team is doing well, praise God. Mostly everybody is staying healthy. The report that I received was that they are doing a tremendous job this year, as usual. It’s a very good class this year. They are doing a very good job in ministry over there, so we are excited about that. Maybe I’ll get something from Kimberly, if we need any of the details.

Let’s get ready to start and see if there are any questions that we might want to deal with on those subjects. We mentioned, as we were getting into the teaching, that we were spending a little more time on the eschatological portion because, in our midst, there had been trickling through different discussions and talking about different aspects of a post-tribulation, or an amillennial, stance. We talked about the fact that coming into some different aspects of conclusions, you have to, then, begin to interrupt the Scriptures based upon allegory and based on other than a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. It’s not so much the conclusion, it’s the method that is approached. Anything other than literal interpretation and application of the Scriptures is heretical, so we have to be very, very careful.

We went back and talked a little bit where that method of interpretation began with Origen and the desire to marry the Greek mythology with the biblical perspective. It began through that manner of interpretation. This is where a lot of the error came in and, then, it became, as Augustine, in his City of God book, embraced Origen’s method of interpretation and a lot of his findings, the Catholic church propagated this and it came into things that you and I would call, in this latter-day emphasis, exclusive from the Catholic church, in Protestant circles, "Kingdom Now" theology. It breeds a desire to stay here on the earth and the fact that we are the power of God that is going to overcome evil and conquer the world, and after that’s done we’ll be able to present it to Jesus. The Scripture doesn’t teach that. The Scripture teaches that He’s going to come. He’s going to conquer with the words out of His mouth. They are going to come and stand against Him as the sands of the sea, and defy Him, and He’s going to proclaim His Lordship. He’s going to rule and reign, literally, for a thousand years with a rod of iron. Satan is going to literally be restrained for that period of time—the lion lay down with the lamb—all of these things that we call the millennial reign of Christ. They have it as symbolism and symbolic, and right now, we’re in the millennium and the church is ruling in Jesus’ stead.

It’s not exactly, if we are ruling with a rod of iron. It would be more like a noodle, because there is still a glimpse of evil manifesting itself periodically. Jesus is periodically being rejecting as Lord and His reign is not absolute or dominant. We tried to bring out a few of those points as we were going into the teaching, and then, of course, we shifted gears and went to the other subject matter in how to deal with apostasy, defection, within the kingdom of God, within our households, our personal households, the church, and we began to examine part of the motive, too. Why is God doing this and what is that fifth commandment all about when God puts such an emphasis in the Scriptures on children honoring their fathers and their mothers? We talked a little bit about not just obeying, as Ephesians says, but honoring, giving esteem, recognizing the purpose of God’s divine order. What has happened, I think, in much of our society, and in a lot of our homes, is that order has been broken. The honor has been lost, and there is no greater honor than serving our father’s God. There is no greater dishonor, or rebellion, than defying our father’s God, because we understand that this covenant is generational to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to you, to your children, to your children’s children. and God doesn’t reveal or manifest it in any other way than a generational perspective. Our children are expected to grow up and honor the Lord. It’s God’s intention.

It’s His eternal plan and nothing else is expected. When it is not fulfilled, He takes extreme measures. To show you how natural this is, it’s the same reason God, many times… I know that when some of you first got saved and you read through the Old Testament, how many of you were taken aback a little bit when you read the first time that God sent his chosen, ordained, covenant people into the land and told them, "I want you to kill men, women, children, even their animals." How many of you were taken aback the first time that you read that? Did it, and, now that you understand why, the propagation of evil, that generation is going to beget another generation of evil, of those that will oppose the covenant people. God said, "We’ll annihilate them." This is the thing that we have to understand. He doesn’t allow any propagation of evil that would prevent his covenant children, even within his own household, so that is the basic premise. Anything? We’ll take a quick moment, and then you all can be thinking if there are any questions that you had specifically. Anything that stood out to you men in either of the subject matter?

PASTOR LAROCK: In the last subject matter that you were dealing with, just the aspect of that "chosenness." Father has, in choosing us and seeing His purpose that to the next generation and from that prior generation to another generation. Just seeing His sovereign hand in His purpose in setting us apart. To see in my mind you drag it over to yourself, that’s what God has done with us. He has gathered us to Himself and said, "You’re mine." He has given us His Word, and He’s given us His Spirit. He said, "My Word is going to be in your heart, and I want it to go from your heart to your son’s heart and to his son’s heart. You are going to be My people." It just stood out to me over the last couple of weeks, and I have seen it in a way that I have never seen before. We are the chosen people. We have been set apart; we have been gathered together unto God. We’re brought near to Him, and all those phrases are in the Scriptures. He brought us near to Himself and He has chosen us. It is not by chance that we were chosen. It is not by chance that we have the children that we have. He said in Deuteronomy, Chapter 6, that passage that we refer to frequently when we teach on parenting, about the Word that is supposed to be in our hearts and that we are supposed to teach it diligently to our children and our children’s children throughout the course of our land and throughout the course of our lives. It says, first of all, the Word is supposed to be in our hearts. As a parent, we see the theology of it and we see some of the practical revelation. Pastor, you emphasized this in the teaching. Have we communicated to our children, over and over, that you have been chosen by God? It’s not an accident that you were born into this home. It is not by chance that God picked you. It wasn’t by chance. You didn’t happen to be born into a family, to a man and women that are Christians. God picked you. God foresaw you and chose you to be His child. It is something that is very important because it is true, unless they prove otherwise, because they are a vessel of dishonor by hardening their hearts, by stubbornness or rebellion, by refusing the commandments of God. We have every reason to believe that they are the chosen of God. It is a very sobering thing. It’s such a privilege and an honor that we have been chosen by God and our children have been chosen by God to bring honor to Him. I could go on, but those are a few things that stood out to me.

PASTOR SCOTT: It’s so precious. Many of us do it about our natural lineage without even knowing it. It’s something that is innate. People feel that they’re special, that their family is special. The Hatfields and the McCoys, and each of them a special particular group, and to realize that we are the sons of God. The children of the Most High. We were chosen and known before we were even formed in our mother’s womb. God knew us and predestined us in so many ways and, then, to think that we have choices and a right to chose against God’s eternal purpose is pretty futile. He expects us to carry out His business and honor His name and represent Him as His sons, as huios, the mature sons of God. One of the things that are required in this walk of faith is what Abraham had to go to. We have to take our kids up the mountain and be willing to offer up whatever those idols are and all those things God has given us. Sometimes it happens many times in our lives, where He is saying, "You are starting to take stuff back, let’s head up the mountain," and there it is again. "Now I know," He said, "that you love Me, that you are going to honor Me and keep My commandments." These are things that we have to endure in this walk of faith, in the process that we are in. Steve, were you going to share something?

PASTOR LAROCK: I was just thinking again on this same subject on how important it is that that is what is communicated to our child. We give to our children what’s in our heart in abundance about what our true treasure is because we see the standard that God holds our children accountable to. God forbid they would be judged for not serving God, when we have not represented, by our lives, that He is our true treasure. That has to be something where there should be no question in the minds of our children of what our true treasure is, of what we live and die for. What is the true treasure of our hearts and the true love? It shouldn’t be sometimes it is this, and sometimes it is that. Sometimes it is back and forth. They really like church, but they like money, and they really like getting promoted at work, and whatever. You can fill in the blank with whatever it may be. That is why it says in Deuteronomy, Chapter 6, about your children, "These words shall be in your heart… And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." If we are expecting them to follow our God, and that is the point that I am trying to make. Is it very clear what our god is? It should be very, very clear. There should be no doubt in their hearts and minds by watching your life, not just by what you say, but by what they see in your life, what their god is.

PASTOR SCOTT: Tragically, this is what got us off on the subject. Tragically, so many times, the idols are in our own homes and they’re a family member. Whether it’s grandma we can’t leave… When Jesus said, "Come and follow me," they said, "Let me first bury my father." Sometime we misunderstand that, especially as Americans, and it’s not in our culture. Dad wasn’t laying up there on a slab and Jesus said, "Come on, you are not going to the funeral." He said, "Let me stay here and take care of him until he passes, and when I get all the natural cared for, then I’ll follow you." That’s what he was saying. This is when the Lord spoke very clearly, concerning, "let the dead bury their dead" (Matthew 8:22). He’s making it very clear who our mother and brothers are. "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother" (Mark 3:35). Those are the things that we are facing, especially in this hour. Steve.

PASTOR GARDNER: What I was going to say, the teaching on the imminent return and some of the events after Jesus has returned, and even in talking about the rebellious children, you just mentioned the thousand years of Jesus ruling and reigning, and us being there with Him. The Scripture makes it very clear. "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron" (Revelation 2:27). That doesn’t sound too pleasant to me. I am glad that I am not going to be here at the end of that rod of iron, and we won’t be. We’ve made our decision. We’re set, but when you stop and think about it, and you go back through all of history, when you have the children of Israel going to the land that was promised to them and having them kill all of the inhabitants, the men, the women, the children, the animals, and we come on down. We see him giving instructions on how to deal with the rebellious child—you kill them, you take them out. When you come down to that period of time and realize that for a thousand years of peace, He’s got to rule. There’s no devil. He’s chained up. [The devil] gets a lot of blame for a lot of the things that go on, and yet the rebellion is in our own hearts. When you have Jesus, when I look at that some what I say, Jesus should come in and rule your home right now. Some of your inhabitants are going to be rebellious because, if any of them should be here during that thousand years, at the end of that whole thing, it says they left Him as the sands of the sea. That’s a whole bunch of people. That sounds like it’s much more than the majority, a whole lot more, very few, and when you realize that sometimes, you have to come down off your high horse and realize who am I? Who do I think that I am that that I am going to change the heart of this rebellious child, or whoever it might be, not just a child, but anybody? When Jesus Himself will rule for a thousand years and as soon as the devil is turned loose, they turn around and follow him. So, what are you going to do?

PASTOR SCOTT: It’s a very difficult thing to realize that in Matthew 10, when He said "I am going to split houses, three against two and two against three." The fact that there is no guarantee that there is going to be a following of the diligent teaching that Deuteronomy says, and then He tells us what to do if there is not. He’s the source of that. He’s the one that brings this judgment and this division and so we have to see that from both perspectives. Many times, as parents, or those that are in positions of responsibility, we want to take the responsibility. "I must not have done my job." The Guy that is in charge is doing His job. Jesus is head of His church and of those that were given to Him, He lost (say it) none. You can’t take that on yourself and, yet, we are going to be judged as overseers of the flock, as overseers of our homes, etc., for the job that we’ve done in our personal dedication and commitment to the task at hand. Ultimately, the Lord, by His Spirit, is the One that is causing all of these things to transpire. We can’t begin to judge God and say "Why have You done this? Why would You allow this in my home? I’ve been either good, or I deserve this, and because of my lack of diligence, I’m going to be a little more lenient." You don’t have the right, just because you failed, to become more lenient and not hold the standard of Jesus’ Lordship. You confess your sin and let them confess their sin. We’re all responsible and so those are things that we really need to come to grips with. Jon.

PASTOR MILLER: As Chuck was saying, the line of demarcation that you taught on needs to be very clear. I can remember, growing up, "If you do anything else other that what the Word of God has taught you to do, you’re gone." It was very simple. There was no doubt in my mind. I remember there were times that I was going out the front door and there was this—it used to scare me out of my mind—it has to be clear in the minds of the kids and I have been teaching that to the kids here. It is very simple; you have one choice in life. We have been going over it this whole week. You have one choice in life. What choice is that? To serve Jesus with all of your heart. You have no other decision. You have no other choice; you have no other option. It is either that or you die. It has to be that clear with them, and it has to be His way or the highway, and God’s kingdom, as Chuck was saying. It is so cool that we get to be part of that. God accepts one type of person—the dead person. That is the kingdom of death, you die, you are risen in Christ Or you can live any way that you want to. Those are the two choices, and if you want to do anything outside of this kingdom, you have to move out there. It’s that simple, and the line of demarcation, even in our own lives, has to be that clear. What about the other areas such as prayer, church service, young adults, youth group? Is the line of demarcation straight there or is it "I can miss this, I can do what I want to do." If that is the case, then that is going to show up in this area of your life. Are you ready for the big decisions and will you make the small decisions? God has called us to be His people, and when we are His people, we get to do it His way and there is no option for us as adults as parents. I’m brainwashing myself now, I have one coming on the way. Am I getting ready? God forbid, if that decision were to take place, would I be ready? It starts in these decisions right now, whether it is church service or young adults, or whether it is Saturday men’s breakfast. Whatever it might be, is Jesus first in all those decisions, because He is going to be first in that decision.

PASTOR SCOTT: As we were talking earlier, what is the treasure? That’s the issue as we’re training up another generation. What is it that we really do live for? The apostle said, "For to me to live is Christ…" (Philippians 1:21). Why else are we here? What are we living for? We understand the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep His commandments, and if we’re not careful in this generation that we are living in, we would—and our theology has begun to show it—we would think that there are other reasons. We would think that we are establishing the kingdom of God on the earth and, because of that, we begin to use natural methods, political power, economic influence, all of these different things, rather than the foolishness of preaching, the foolishness of this gospel. This unique people that stand separate and people mock us. We’re to delight and rejoice in that identification as we’re crucified with Him. This is something. We’re raising another generation to treasure that great pearl and we all know what it takes. It’s not eighty percent. There is nothing that we hold on to that would keep us from obtaining that pearl. We see it for what it is, and that’s the whole message that we’re bringing. If we compromise somewhere, what are we saying to those that are around us? Who, then, is the real treasure of our life? What, then, is the real treasure of our life? That was basically the thing that we were pointing out in the study. Just before we open it up for any questions, let’s go back real quickly. Turn to Deuteronomy with me. I just want to make a distinction for us in Deuteronomy 13 and 17 and 21 and just to give you a look at this again. Thirteen, we’re pretty familiar with. Theologically, it’s easy to grasp. Practically, it’s a different thing. This one is easy to understand, "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, [we took a little bit of time to talk about the intimacy of these statements] entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [notice, here it is talking about secrecy] Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people" (Deuteronomy 13:6-9). We started off with that.

We talked about the ten commandments and we were emphasizing the fifth commandment—honor your father and mother that you might live long—and the first and great commandment, and the second, graven images. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). This what the whole revelation of these passages are about and the more that we embrace the world’s system, the more leaven begins to affect our lives. The more that you allow this in your midst and—again, we’ve talked about this so many times—where do you see the "family clause?" The fact that, somehow, we think that family, blood, can’t be leaven. "They have a right to be there; they won’t affect us." This passage speaks very clearly in contradiction to that. The Holy Spirit is making it very clear that if there is an enticing at all, and we tried to fluff that out a little bit about what it was. It wasn’t "Let’s go down and worship this totem pole," but it’s, "Surely, we don’t have to be that committed. You can be a Christian without being a frontline Christian. Why don’t we be a casual Christian, the kick-back Christian?" "We don’t oppose the Word, we just kind of diminish it a little bit. We dilute it a little bit." All of these things are an enticing to a gospel that is not a gospel indeed, so that is the kingdom of darkness. That is idolatry. That is seeking the father of lies, and we could spend more time, but I just want you to see the contrast of the three.

Turn with me to Chapter 17 for just a moment. As we were looking at this passage of Scripture, we talked about the secrecy that was taking place here in the thirteenth chapter, and then, in seventeen, it says, "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates…man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant" (verse 2). Let’s look at that phrase again; get it into your notes, "…that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord…" When I speak the term here, or the Lord uses the term "wickedness," what are you thinking about? Wickedness, and we start thinking about murder and mayhem and drugs and sex and thievery and all these things that are acts against man. Look at what he says, "this wickedness." That’s a strong word that is used in the Scriptures and what is that wickedness? Transgressing the covenant, going and serving other gods, and worshiping them. All he’s talking about is a defection. This wickedness, the wickedness of forsaking the covenant. We are a covenant people, "…a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9). We see right here it’s something that we minimize, "Well, they do not want to serve the Lord. It’s their choice, they’re an American. They can choose if they want to serve God or not. They have to stay in the house because the child protection services said that you can’t let them out. I’m responsible, and if I don’t watch over them and they go out there and damage somebody’s property, I’m responsible for that." We start taking everything that the world has to say and we’re rejecting the same covenant that we are trying to protect them from by compromising.

The Scripture says, the Lord says, that anybody that finds themselves in this wickedness, serving idols, other gods—and this is interesting—"…it be told thee…" He says, be sure of this thing. What some of us are dealing with is not that this is happening and somebody is coming and telling us. They’re telling us to our face, "I’m not going to serve your God!" And we say, "Okay." "Can I have the car tonight?" We’re going to get real hard on them, "Be in by ten," or whatever it is. Listen to what is happening here. This defiance of the Lord requires what? Verse 6, "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death…The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you." So we see here again, this aspect. So many of us said, "Surely, it has to deal with overt rebellion." That is what Chapter 21 speaks about, but rebellion does not have to be "in your face" rebellion. Rebellion is just you sitting there saying, "The Lord is God. Jesus is our Savior. He bought us with a price. We’re not our own." And the person says, "I don’t believe that. I’m not going to live my life that way." You are the priest of that house; you are the representative of God to that community. There is no greater rebellion than for a child to reject his Father’s God.

When we look over at Chapter 21, we need to see it for what it is. Let’s turn over there real quickly and we’ll see if there are any questions. Verse 18, "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, [brought the rod and reproof and instruction, and all the things we know the Scriptures require] will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother, ["your dad is going to get you"—father and mother] lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard." This kid isn’t being killed because he’s a glutton and a drunkard; it’s because he is serving other gods. He’s rebellious. He’s defying the mandate of the fifth commandment that says, "Honour thy father and thy mother." That is what is causing him to come to this judgment. Then, the Scripture says, "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." We talked about how often that phrase is used throughout these passages of Deuteronomy. Unfortunately, we’ve lost some of our young people over the years. Ultimately, Jesus is responsible because, of those that were given to Him, He’s not going to lose any. The question that we have to ask ourselves is this: Are we doing everything we can possibly do to set the environment, to provoke our little ones to love and to good works, to present to them the pearl of great price? Are we fulfilling the mandate that the Lord has put on us to be epistles that are read by these little ones watching our lives and seeing our jealousy for the glory of God, and that we are making choices for eternity and not for the moment? That’s the question we are asking ourselves as we’ve spent time in this study here. Any questions on this particular subject matter that we might be able to address, or on the eschatological perspective, also? We’ll go ahead and open that up, also.

Throughout the Scriptures, the apostle says that we have to be very careful to understand that the teachers, those of us who are to be instructing, are under greater judgment if we are not going to be keeping these particular commandments. We know that, as it pertains to the ministry, those that are teachers among us, those who are in these positions, our sins are to be known before all and there is to be a rebuke before all, that all may fear. What happens is we begin to abdicate our role and that happens… We see it in many ways in Corinthians. We can see it clearly defined there, where there is the sanctifying of the believing parent over the child. In other words, the parent that begins to abdicate their role forfeits that role; and the spiritual one now becomes the head of that particular community, whether it is the wife or the husband. It’s the one that is going to be keeping the commandants, the one that is sanctified. It’s very, very important that we see this. The Scripture goes on in the Old Testament, too, and it says to be very careful about how you treat children, orphans, and widows. What we’re doing is that we are putting ourselves under the judgment of God. As His representatives who fail to keep His commandments, He’s going to deal with you. He’ll bring you into a position of purifying or of destruction. It’s very important that we keep these responsibilities before our eyes. How merciful is the Lord? We know that God is very longsuffering. I think that the point that will help to drive it home will be Eli. There’s an Eli that said, "Nay, nay, my sons…" (1 Samuel 2:24) It not only cost him his life, but God wants to perpetuate this generationally. The priesthood was taken away from that genealogy forever. That’s a powerful thing, so we see the judgment of God on Eli for failing to hold his children to the standard. That is something that we need to take very seriously. Any comments that you men might have along those lines?

PASTOR LAROCK: You could also use as an instrument of judgment to the parent that Rick is asking about, the parent not carrying it through to the end. If the parent is not in the place of keeping the covenant, then the church authorities deal with them, like a parent would deal with a stubborn and rebellious child.

PASTOR SCOTT: Right, I didn’t understand that part. If you were talking about God’s representative ecclesiastically, then there begins to be dealing with spiritual authority with that parent who is not keeping the commandment. You see that over here. Turn back to the Deuteronomy passage in Chapter 17, and the judges that were set in place. When things get to a place where it’s not handled at that level, it says, in verse 9, "And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment: And thou shalt do according to the sentence…[and it says] And the man [verse 12] that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister…[as God’s representative, then he] shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel." It is not a small thing in this community that we are living in, in the church, in the body of Christ. There is the chastening of the Lord and reproof and the rebuke that comes from those roles, also, and the keys to the kingdom have been set into the hands of His representatives. None of us are immune. We are all subject to authority and we are all subject to the judgment, so that’s the way that it will be approached from that perspective.

Any other questions? We’ll see if we can deal with anything. Some of you might be saying, again, why this subject? There were a couple of reasons, but we’ve been facing a number of situations, about four or five, here in the fellowship. I don’t think that it will be the last ones at this age group that we are talking about, but let’s make it the last ones for our little ones. Amen? Let’s not have to keep going through this. If we start it when we should and brainwash them, as Ephesians teaches us, then we will be able to stand in faith and know that what is taking place in midst is the will of God and we can act accordingly and obey the Scriptures.

PASTOR SCOTT: One of the things that you see is an interpretation in the science of hermeneutics. It’s something that you pretty much answered your own question. That, then, is an obvious allegorical statement, or some type of a parable, but it always has a literal truth and a literal application to it. For the ones that are not obvious, you apply the obvious to the predominant over the obscure. In other words, anything that is not obvious to us isn’t going to be as weighty as that which is obscure. God makes things clear that are vitally important to us. In the other areas that would become obvious to us in revelation, these things are not naturally discerned in any way. They are spiritually discerned, and many of these things that are a little more ambiguous at times, are clearly understood later. Not everything needs to be understood at the moment. God reveals these things to us at the times that we need to hear them, know them and understand them. You can read through two or three times and not see something and suddenly, it says "Whoa, look at that!" That is where the teacher, the Holy Spirit, we have our confidence in. The general truths are very obvious. The general revelations are very obvious, and so, that is way we look at that. Any comments you guys might have along those lines?

PASTOR LAROCK: I think that reliable students see that the Bible speaks and tells when there are allegories like the one you were referring to when you were teaching about Hagar and Ishmael, the child of promise versus the child of the flesh. In other literature we see things that are obvious, like when it says "…the trees of the fields shall clap their hands" (Isaiah 55:12), a literal understanding of that wouldn’t necessarily mean that you would be walking along with branches that are going to be moving together.

PASTOR SCOTT: Trees have hands?

PASTOR LAROCK: They do not literally have hands. You would understand that to be that nature is rejoicing and that you are kind of blessed wherever you go for eternity. So that is where they do have a literal interpretation, a literal meaning to that, but the actual way that it is described is, and those things are pretty obvious.

PASTOR SCOTT: As we shared the teaching, it’s based upon language. Language, the word means what it means, so when we know that tress don’t have hands, then we understand that this is a metaphor and something that we are looking at, so those are the things that we always apply, but understanding its literal meaning. That’s where Origin and the others got into trouble, because, with symbolism, everybody could make it what they wanted it to be. "This symbolized that." No, it doesn’t. It’s what it says that it is, so these are the different applications over the years in interpretation. Hopefully, that helps a little bit. Any other questions on either of the subjects? Yes.

PASTOR SCOTT: We would call it ex-communication, marking, turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, because what we are looking to do in these areas. The reason that we can’t, as Rick was asking the question, allow parents not do their job, and I think that we related to this in the last teaching. This is affecting all of us. Achan’s choice affected the whole covenant people with defeat. I likened it to the fact, that of our practical walk… I was in here the other day again after making that comment. I happened to be the only one in here in prayer at that time and I was looking at the prayer list and just wondering what we might be seeing if we knew that all of the sin was out of the camp. We are all sinners; I’m not taking about that. I’m talking about obvious choices against the instruction that God has given us, of idols, things that we are choosing, and, as we are coming into the last days of iniquity abounding, we talked about one of the signs of the last days as children are being disobedient to parents, and unthankful, and unholy, and these different things that are affecting the church at this particular time.

We need to guard our hearts against it. We can’t just wink at these things and say, "Well, I just don’t see it" or "I don’t want to do it." That’s fine, but we’re not going to do that here. There are other religious gatherings that you can go to, but we’re not doing that here. What will happen is, if dad’s not doing his job, and we start putting biblical pressure on, from our perspective, to protect the rest of you, I tell you, beloved, you shouldn’t say, "Why are they being so mean to brother so and so?" We’re trying to save your life. We are not being mean to brother so-and-so; we are trying to protect your kids. That’s our job. What has to happen is, brother so-and-so has to make a choice. You either do the Word or you go somewhere else, "…but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." That is the way that it goes. It starts here. God has placed gifts in the body of Christ. We’re going to show what it means to not to compromise with people’s crying. We are not going to spare for people’s crying and we are going to try to honor God the best way that we know how and make biblical choices, so that is how it looks today. It’s like we are going to have to put this one out. Two can’t walk together if they are not agreed, but that’s always the last step. There is the process of instruction, and we’re patient, and we’re trying to bring reproof and rebuke and instruction and all of these things, but if it is refused, then that final judgment has to be made. Any comments that you men might have along those lines? Does that help some? Any other questions on any of the subjects that we have dealt with? Yes.

Depending on the age of course, we talked about the rod and reproof. There always needs to be instruction in different areas and they do not have to be too old to be able to hear. "Daddy hasn’t been loving you properly like Jesus told me to and I’ve been so worried about hurting your feelings. I just want you to know that we love Jesus first. He’s the most important thing in our lives. He died for our sins and he told me that my job as your dad is to bring you in this direction. Things are changing from this time on." You give them a point, just like when some of us are born again. They should be able to come and say, "I remember when things changed." Then, there is that consistency from that time on to where there is no fainting in these things.

I think that the important part, too, we saw that it was father and mother. This has to be a team effort, as we’re assuming that process of Ephesians to systematically train them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Address it every time that it is out of order. Speak to it immediately, deal with it at the moment. Psychologists want to tell us not to embarrass the child in public. You sin publicly, you get rebuked publicly. So many want to deal with it at home. By the time it gets home, and, in the child’s mind, they are going to present to you their whole confused, "I didn’t understand, I didn’t know." The moment the transgression takes place, and now, we have taught them the consequences of sin and it becomes habitual. Those are things that that we can do. We put it off. I’m going to deal with it when I get home and, if you are dealing with little people, they don’t even remember. Do you remember when you pushed Johnny?" No, because he’s pushed twelve other kids after that, and Johnny was lost somewhere in the mix, and he has to be dealt with twelve times. That’s before you get home, that’s before you leave the education building, and that is how we break these things. Those are a few of the practical things. Just speak to it, confess your sin. If you haven’t done your job, confess your sin, say, "I have been wrong, but now we are going to do it right." Then you go about Father’s business. Any other questions? Yes.

That is one of the key principles, the truths that we are looking at here. I think we talked a little in the last session about, "Well, I am the head of my house and I’ll determine how my children are dealt with." The answer to that is, "Yes, you are. But if it’s not to a biblical standard, then you are going to have to do it somewhere else." We that say that we are of one heart and one mind, like the body was who had all given themselves wholly to seeking the Lord, and then you have Ananias and Sapphira over here that have a different standard of what it means to give all. They wanted to be seen as part of the group, they just didn’t want to pay the whole price like the rest of them. God frowns on that. We realize that what we are looking at is, if we are in this community, we know what we are trying to accomplish here. People that are trying to serve God the best that we know how, not least that we can do, but the most that we can do for God. What’s the best we can possibly do to honor God in our lives? That’s what we know is to be a part of this fellowship. For us to say, "I don’t agree with that," I think, then, that you need to go somewhere else. That’s the real issue at hand here and it’s very important that we don’t minimize the standard and try to establish a personal standard in our own children’s eyes, and they come and begin to sow it into the other children up here. What do we have now? What we have is strife, and "where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work" (James 3:16). Satan begins to take people captive to his will and we have to make determinations whether this is a tare in our midst, is it leaven, or is this a wolf that’s coming. Anything that’s other than a member in harmony has to be identified and expelled. Those are the things that are part of the process of purifying the body so that all may hear and fear.

This is not a standard of Calvary Temple; it is not a standard of any of us. We didn’t make it up. The Book is clear to all of us. In all these years, I can’t ever remember sitting down with somebody and opening up the Scriptures, having somebody say, "Boy, I don’t understand that." Everybody has understood what we have ever dealt with and said, "I’m not going to do that. I’m not going to do it that way." Are you saying that’s not what the Scripture says? "Well, I know what it says, but I don’t see that way." What they are saying is that "I am not going to apply it. I’ll assent to the truth, but I’m not going to apply it at this moment. Someday, maybe when the Lord leads…" There are a lot of twists, but that is basically what it comes down to. We’re responsible, we know what the standard is, so we say, "That is not who we are, that is not what God calls us to do." What about little children that are up here, if mom and dad aren’t around? You treat them like your own children. You just love them and say, "We don’t do that. You’re not going to talk that way. You don’t act ugly like that. You don’t…" We bring about the reproof and the rebuke and the correction that is necessary to keep ourselves holy unto to God. That is our responsibility. Does that answer it at all?

Do you remember that we did a teaching just recently about the book of remembrance and we talked about that? God listens to what we are saying and discussing among ourselves. What are we doing, how does God see us? What is God writing down about the way that we are interacting with one another and loving one another and provoking to love and good works? I think that it is important that we keep the standard in our conversations, and if you see something that doesn’t look right, say, "How does that apply to…" We don’t go up to criticize people but we ask questions. How does that work in light of this Scripture? What you are saying or what you are doing? Where do you find that in the Scriptures? Help me to understand and see your biblical basis for why you are doing that, why you are saying that, why you’re thinking that, because the Scripture specifically says, "Think on these things…" (Philippians 4:8). And that is how we love one another. Any comments along those lines? Any others? Yes.

Okay. I would assume what we are talking about are some of the different diseases that are being experienced and possibly even HIV, and some of these things that are being encountered. Most of the other sicknesses have been pretty common for a long time. It’s not any of the judgments that we read about in the Apocalypse because that time hasn’t started yet. These are the sicknesses that become the consequence of man’s fallen nature, sin that is working in our members, and the Lord says that it is his desire to take sickness out of the midst of us. Sickness is part of Satan’s kingdom and man was never intended to die. Man was never intended to be sick, and these illnesses, the ailments, are generally the fruit of sin and we are all subject to them. You don’t get sick because you are a sinner; you get sick because you are human, because we are part of Adam’s race. As we are being regenerated, then, the way that we deal with sickness, as it tries to attack us, is "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him" (Acts 10:38). We realize now that we are in opposition to sickness; we are in opposition to sin, and so, by faith, we believe that we are healed by the stripes of Jesus, but we don’t see it as a particular judgment until the Apocalypse or the time of tribulation. Any other questions? Yes.

The perspective of an antinomian is one that is opposed to the law in relationship to grace, is the term, so we realize that. That is where I was making the comment, there are people that are saying, "Don’t try to put me under the law" or "We are living in the spirit. We’re getting revelation from God." The Scripture says that the law is good, holy and just. There have been those sects that say "We are separate from the law as Christians, we walk in the spirit, and we don’t have to deal with the law." We realize that Jesus didn’t come to destroy the law, He came to fulfill it, so that’s how we are using that phrase. Any others, we’ll take any other questions.

It’s getting a little late. Let’s go ahead, then, and pray, and as we are praying, if you would pray for Greer and me. We’re getting ready to head out on Tuesday and are believing Father to speak through us, to be able to comfort the ministry gifts that are there and lift up hands. We are believing that the Lord will do a good work and keep us strong, give us His wisdom, and so, if you would, let’s just stand together and we’ll pray, and believe that Father will have His way in our midst. Praise God!

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